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Jayths are awful and overcosted and need adjustment

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Weathercock, Dec 4, 2020.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Corvus has been throwing around a lot of new Jayth sculpts with defiance and the new CA releases, as well as big boy Sargosh being one of the most gorgeous models in the entire CA range. However, we end up running into a bit of a problem when it comes time to take these guys on to the table, as it turns out that they're really, really bad.

    Turns out that a 25-39 point model that starts in your deployment zone with no marker state, a single wound with low armour, and a suite of close combat tools is a terribly inefficient and unreliable investment. The Jayths just end up paying a huge amount of points for a kit that doesn't want to work together. In fact, this goes beyond that not just working together, their MSV is there primarily to restrict them from taking advantage of White Noise that they would otherwise be able to easily access in their fireteam through Victor, and would be insane with their ODD. This is fair enough, they shouldn't have that synergy. But they should not be made to pay extra for that downside.
    This is one of the rare cases where I would actually endorse the use of Frenzy. While normally something I would consider a garbage rule, a discount is needed to make up for the limitation they are supposed to be designed around.

    The other problem is that so much of their toolkit wants to get up close and personal, but realistically getting there is going to be a nightmare against most factions. On paper, I like the idea of extremely dangerous glass canons, they're not scaring anyone from your own deployment zone and their low armour and single wound will see them eaten alive by deployables. Infiltration, FD, or parachutist all make sense with their background, so it's extremely strange for them to start in your deployment zone. Any of the above deployment skills would make their glass canon approach actually attractive.

    I really want to put some Jayths on the table. As noted, Sargosh is beautiful and there are a few potentially interesting loadouts available for them, but right now they are such a confusing and expensive mix of abilities that I really see no use for using them other than for sandbagging against newer players.
     
    #1 Weathercock, Dec 4, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
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  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I've mentioned this elsewhere, but Jayth are perfect for when you run your entire Shasvastii army as tohaa proxies and need three to four makauls.
     
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  3. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Fucking ouch
     
  4. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    Now that's the kind of evaluation you can set your watch to!
     
  5. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    O O F .
     
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  6. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I broadly agree; they’ve got some interesting things going on, but they just feel expensive. Not sure what you mean about MSV being to prevent them from taking advantage of albedo, though, as they do not have that rule. I tried a Haris of them in N3, mixing the red fury and short range versions. It overcomes the efficiency somewhat, as you have a longer range weapon to help the shorter range loadouts get closer. In the end, they mostly ended up feeling like overpriced Myrmidons.
     
  7. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, not Albedo, but White Noise. It's very obvious that the purpose of that MSV1 is there to make sure that you can't haris them with Victor and have him set up a zone of unassailable -6.
     
  8. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    You can still work with the white noise to block off msv troopers. But you won't be able to shoot through it with the jayth. But it might bea way to keep them safer with their mimetism - 6.
    Bioimmunity would be great on them at least they have BTS 6.
    I love the sculpts and the idea, but find myself often just switching them out for more shrouded, malignos or caliban instead, when listbuilding.
     
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    They are not, per se, overprized if you compare them with Myrmidons (chain rifle: 16 pts with mim-6, MA3...); in fact the Myrms get ARM 2 instead of BTS 6, and CC21 instead of 23, have stealth, courage and dodge +2'' instead of shas, duo, haris and NBW, and frenzy without the MSV1.

    If you go for the SMG 28pts profile is prized quite good for a Suppresive Fire unit (the myrm able to enter such state costs 24pts) or to hunt enemy midfield units. Also, their E/M grenades allow them to threat both HI and TAG enemies with the usual 50% speculative fire inside their ZoC.

    The problem is simply that is a multipurpose short range unit, and that you would be better served if instead of MSV1 it would get Stealth and a price discount, or even a camo without mimetism state (to represent their underground movements)...

    Anyway I woulnd't say it's useless, but it's a unit that certainly has little to no relation to the Shasvastii's usual playstyle.
     
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  10. melkiach

    melkiach PheroBoosted

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    Hahahaha, that play!
     
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  11. Abydog

    Abydog Well-Known Member

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    Mmh , they can be linked in a haris and have a red fury profile on top of mimetism -6.
    I have seen worse
     
  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Question - do you use Terrain zones on your tables?

    Because 'ODD' + MSV1 is freaking terrifying if there are forests etc. involved.
     
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  13. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    I think most people use urban terrain, just because it's readily available. I tend to avoid terrain with fuzzy edges just to reduce disagreements.

    As for Cut throats, I really like the Red fury one. Being duoed with Victors is really useful. I think giving the Jayth MSV1 was in order to not abuse the white noise potential. But you can still do it if you pair it up with a Gwailos Haris that has M-Drones. In general I prefer to have 2 sources of strong attack in an army. Below is my preferred Shas army core. The Jayth on it's own can go F2F with most non-MSV units easily, having a specialist in tow is a bonus. If there is an MSV2 unit on the table you can white noise via repeater and send in the Gwailos. You get massive hacking coverage with this.

    I've had a game (N3) where a tag flanked my army and took out most of my good unit, and the Jayth was able to spent about 6 order without cover doing (3x) Mov-Dodge, then get into melee and dismember the tag. Absolute MVP.

    As for the profile, I only really like the red fury one. I may try the Taiga profile since you get a free Taiga under the 15 model cap. The other just seem to be badly equipped.


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    JAYTH CUTTHROATS Red Fury, E/M Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1 | 38)
    VICTOR MESSER (Hacker, Hacking Device Plus) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Cybermines ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 30)
    GWAILO Heavy Machine Gun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 45)
    M-DRONE FTO (Nanoscreen) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 22)
    M-DRONE FTO (Nanoscreen) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 22)

    3 SWC | 157 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #13 Cannon Fodder, Dec 4, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  14. Kelthret

    Kelthret Usuario

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    Nevermind
     
    #14 Kelthret, Dec 4, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    The core of the army list, not a Fireteam: Core!
     
  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    In the post it was described as a duo and a haris.
     
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  17. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    When I said Core I meant list starter. It's supposed to be a Duo & a Haris



    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    JAYTH CUTTHROATS Red Fury, E/M Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1 | 38)
    VICTOR MESSER (Hacker, Hacking Device Plus) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Cybermines ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 30)
    ----------------------
    GWAILO Heavy Machine Gun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 45)
    M-DRONE FTO (Nanoscreen) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 22)
    M-DRONE FTO (Nanoscreen) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 22)

    3 SWC | 157 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Use Holo advertisements as low vis zones. We started doing that a long time ago in N3 with ours, made them more interesting than just being treated as solid wall and made MSV1 feel better too.
     
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  19. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    On one of our tables we use forest rules for planters and rows of trees, it adds a bit of variety. MSV snipers love them. But Unfortunately doing a full forest table breaks the game a bit. I did a table with 30-40% forest and rock coverage. Even with our house rule that you can only see threw 1 forest patch and the second completely blocked LoS even with MSV. My Djanbzan fireteam (Multi-terrain & MSV2) completely decimated my opponent. The imbalance can get a bit much. If planning a game on a heavy forest table make sure both side are aware in advance.
     
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  20. Kelthret

    Kelthret Usuario

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    Whoops. In my defense, I had just woken up from a long nap. My bad