I'm with you on this but from a business perspective there are probably no two opinions. I'm sure TAGs are a major draw to a lot of customers.
I have every Nomad TAG except for the Stigmata and the Gator (not adding them to the list until I have 20+ models to paint). And I like TAGs. And I disagree. Big models are nice centerpieces and people enjoy having centerpieces, they draw people to the game, but you do not need every big model to be a TAG. CB has produced impressive bike units. CB has produced impressive beasts like Duroc or the symbiobeasts. The Maghariba while still a TAG looks nothing like the rest of the TAGs and is still one of the top-selling and most loved units. Not everything has to be a stompy robot.
Hear, hear! On a related note, it'd be great to see more spiderbot and similar remotes instead of proliferation of humanoid ones. And more Auxbots! :)
Rob's comments on the new release. As always, he's much more levelheaded about the whole thing. I still think the Strider, the Wrecker, and especially the Prime are undercosted for what they do. Or rather, things like the Zhencha, the Shakush, and the Kriza are overcosted in comparison.
The reason the costs seem weird is because, well they are weird. CB's internal logic for the forward deployment/Infiltration skills is near non existent. Even something along the basis of "better unit = more cost" doesn't hold true and the points are all over the place. For example Hospitallers pay 6pts for FD+8, meanwhile the Hulang is being charged 3. Rokots/Grunts pay 1pt while Konstantinos pays 4 for Infiltration, yet we all know which of those are actually by far more dangerous when armed with the skill. It looks like CB largely assigns the cost of a forward deployment mechanic based on their gut feeling of how good the unit is going to be (and possibly how much they want to push a unit) but unfortunately, CB are kind of really bad at making that kind of judgement.
In my opinion its very clear that the silverprime optistar is cleary underpriced. The alternate Zuyongs also seem to be a bit cheaper but not at the rate as their big guy. They have a Zuyong stateline with one CC less and 3 BTS more and all are SO. SO is in most cases 1 pts. HMG Torch-Zuyong is the same cost as IA Zuyong. Fine. But he got better BTS and SO. Maybe 1 pt CC is one pts 1 in cost also (I would rate 1 pt CC more or less as cosmetic). Real Zuyong have No.2 which is very useful. Alternate Zuyong have Curage which is also useful - which one is more powerful depends on the situation. One can hold the position, while the other can save a CT when he goes down. Same cost here I guess. So in the end Alt.Zuyong gets +3 BTS for free (and SO imo). Combi TA YJ Zuyong is one pts less as his blue copy but has tinbot -6 instead of -3 which is good but could be compensated with the higher BTS. But now take a look at the ML. While Torchlight has no sidearm, YJ pays one pts more for a LSG. But wait, he has no TA while Torchlight has. HMG YJ pays 3 pts for TA. If we took the 3 pts from blue Zuyong ML we end up with 4 pts for LSG as a sidearm. I would luckily trade the LSG for TA. Para and FO Zuyongs cost the same as their blue and gold counterparts but they lack the riot stoppers and the extra BTS. While SO is obsolete on the blue guys.
There will always be people who do not like it, but, when something happens by popular demand, there is a reason why it is called "popular demand".
Archon, nice analysis, but my takeaway from it is that Rovers are basically fine, cost wise. Number 2 is a really nice skill that counterbalances the cost parity, and the cost difference between Rovers and Zuyongs is minimal. I think the same holds with the Prime, to be honest. Kriza is paying for 360 which is an expensive piece of kit, unfortunately, and if I had to guess, BS-3 is a very cheap skill in CB's metric (not saying that's correct), akin to 1pt mimetism. Generally, I think that TB as a faction is looking very optimised, but much more in respect of Stormbots and Striders than Silverstar units. I also think that's okay, however, because they're also quite limited in design space. The Anathematic, for example, is gonna have a fun time against TB, and TB players won't enjoy mim-6's proliferation over the last year; Nimrods are expensive and relatively shortranged, while Primes screw your pure bonus. Two thumbs up from me for CB's design.
Ah, the forums... good insights fighting tooth and nail against pervasive negativity. Thanks to those who bring sense and balance to the discussion. Including good analysis, which presents the best opportunities for criticism. Back on topic: I'm with those who see the TLB profiles as slightly undercosted. We'll have to see how the faction plays as a whole though. Optimization could be their faction's "flavor", with the usual IA/Pan-O HI-army downsides (little smoke, general lack of non-LoS defense/attack. @archon , I feel the same, logged back in to the forums to see if others were seeing the same thing. Thank you for detailing it well. @Time Bandit seems right overall though, except that I think making BS Attack -3 so cheap is -exactly- the sort of over-optimization that people are worried about here. An un-counterable penalty to the opponent in one of the game's most important stats should cost more than even Mimetism. Regarding the rest of the year, feels like this will be a good one for Infinity in our region (northwest United States). We're getting a fair number of new player inquiries, mostly via Discord, even with little active demo-ing, recruiting, or community organization happening in our area. And frankly TLB seems like a good force to suggest to new players. Slightly-over-optimized might make them a really good crutch for learning the game.
Sadly, this was my read too. On the face of it, what they get for the price is ridiculous, and they're going to stomp all over any other non-SP army trying to play a straight gunfight with value alone. However, they're heavily Hackable with few quality passive defenses, so any faction running good Repeater projection is going to lock them down almost as effectively as MO, and even middling options like Guilang Hackers or Haqq's lineup could stop them dead in their tracks if played well. As is usual for O12 releases, the biggest losers here are PanO and Yu Jing who still rely on a straightforward gunfighting game first and foremost without the tools to make that efficient, while CA and ALEPH can match quality with quality and come out even or better. Nomads are going to be interesting, in that I'm pretty sure Waveriders might actually be able to Pitcher-kill Jazz if they go first and vice-versa, making first turn potentially critical in exploiting the two sides' mutual weakness.
I don’t agree with the sentiment that TLB is undercosted as much as I think that IA has always been overcosted as a conservative act by CB. IA was the first sectorial (to my knowledge) to get wide spread Tac Aware across multiple linkable profiles along with NCO and a 2 order LT option. I wasn’t there in the game design room with the company. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they were less lenient against the profile costs to avoid this kind of mentality. And after seeing how IA has performed overall, probably are adjusting their formula a bit. Again. I was not in the room. I don’t speak Spanish. And I am not a game developer. Just a theory of mine looking how they’ve approached MO and TLB since the release of IA. I think that TLB’s biggest obstacle is going to be the same as IA’s ( I don’t have any experience playing PanO). When everything is so expensive, there’s a whole lot less wiggle room in making a list. You can’t swap out options as easily. So it’ll be interesting to see if the spine of TLB is a Prime the same way that the spine of a IA list is Shang Ji AP HMG.
The reason the Zuyong vs Rover price looks weird as shit is because the Zuyongs are sucking up +3 points to get +1 burst on their pistols, and they all pay 1pt for Number 2. Baseline Combi/BSG Zuyong are actually 22pts if you take the filler off. The Rovers have Specialist Operative baseline is also cheap, it's 1pt as well. And as far as I can tell BTS6 doesn't actually cost very much, gaining BTS is significantly cheaper than gaining armour per point. Number 2 is actually a pretty useful skill to have on them baseline, the pistol burst cost not so much. Placing a pistol burst tax is a little trick CB uses when they want to drive up the cost on a unit somewhat arbitrarily when they're worried something is too cheap, it's why you'll sometimes see random upgraded pistols on otherwise suspiciously cheap units like the Dokks (+1 burst Multi pistols on units otherwise running around with combi rifles), it's an easy way to jump up a cost on something by giving it gear that won't see much use in a game. When I break down the cost of the Rovers I can't actually find any discrepancies, as far as I can tell they're not like Evaders, Teutons, or Hospitallers that are all actually arbitrarily discounted. Rovers just happen to have points sunk into more noticeable bang for buck stats and skills than the Zuyong do. As far as the Prime goes I'm still down on 50/50 odds his preview stats are incorrect and that's supposed to be -3 CC attack.
Did you not see Rovers have Heavy pistol (+1B)? I would say Heavy pistol is better than breaker pistol, but the single point of extra CC of the Zuyong makes up for it. In the end Rovers have courage and +3bts for the same points as a Zuyong. That is worth 2 points. But on some profiles they have extra light riotstopper,in the FO extra Dcharges and in the ML free TA. In the end costs are chaotic a some profiles are discounted between 2 and 4 points in comparison with Zuyong. That is why I am going to wait for the final costs as current ones do not make any sense.
I saw that, was talking about why the Zuyong seem expensive for their statline. It's the Pistol upgrades and Number 2 that inflates it. I don't think the ML has free TacAw, the Zuyong version carries a second gun with the shotgun. I didn't notice the FO profile actually though, you're right that one is kinda fucky and doesn't add up. Actually neither does the Paramedic one now that I look closer at it. I think you're right and some of these profiles are probably wrong.
I don't think that Torchlight Brigade are outshooting everyone at all. They're good shooters and not expensive for what you get but I think that against a lot of opponents they'll be hiding from their shooting. They've not got a lot of mimetism, they've barely anything disposable.
That’s exactly the point I made earlier. Also, yes they have a good midfield, but apart from the 15pts fwd dep bots (that are excellent, let’s be honest), they don’t have anything disposable for trading, nor they have order generators (like fusiliers for PanO). They shoot well, but don’t shoot as well as PanO does or Bakunin/MAF can do if they decide to maximise the dakka. And even if they do have tools, these come at premium cost. To be confirmed when the Army app will be updated, but it’s very unlikely that you can field Eclipse, Pitchers, strong midfield, and the best combination of active and reactive shooters altogether. Sacrifices will be needed. To be seen on the play what is the flexibility the army has to min-max according to opponents/missions
It's quite possible the best profile in Torchlight is the Digger lol Seriously though is any PanO Sectoral worried about not being able to outshoot these guys? A MO Tik, Cutter, even just a Squalo is going to HMG anything down and they've no cheap warband with smoke to get all up ins. Torchlight are good but they are def playing fair. I feel like they hate Daylami, Pitchers, Morlocks, Madtraps etc. Bit of insurgency.
Amen. When their best shooter is a fully linked Hippolyta at BS16 in a clunky five member Core, the shooting isn’t going to be too frightening. And while yes, adding back in BS Attack (-3) is interesting, it’s balanced by the MSV, so there’s an opportunity to blind the Prime.
The numbers suggest the Prime is a pretty quality gun for both ARO and active turn duties. Sure it's gonna fold to a Cutter or Avatar, but that's not exactly a good benchmark considering the very small number of ARO gunners that can actually stand up to those units (the only one I can think of is TR Atalanta if the Cutter doesn't have surprise attack). I guess you can White Noise trick it as long as it isn't 4/5 man core linked, but HD+ are kind of rare. Active MO Tik vs reactive haris linked Prime. Active (0.54 wounds / order): Wins F2F: 51.3% Causes 1+ wounds: 36.7%, Causes 2+ wounds: 13.7%, Causes 3+ wounds: 3.1% Failure: No wounds caused: 44.9% (14.6% chance active player causes no wounds) (23.0% chance reactive player causes no wounds) Reactive (0.21 wounds / order): Wins F2F: 41.3% Causes 1+ wounds: 18.3%, Causes 2+ wounds: 2.3%, Causes 3+ wounds: 0.1% This is about as good as F2Fs get for reactive pieces - especially considering the active unit here is the MO Tik. 0.54 wounds an order is a pretty horrendous number against a 2W unit with courage. For active turn duties, the Prime is gonna smoke anything that isn't too high on ARM - it's actually a decently balanced piece imo. TB also does get the Wrecker if they want/need AP firepower. I'm not sure if you'll be able to fit both a Wrecker and a Prime in a balanced list, but if you can they compliment each other really nicely. I'm cautiously optimistic that TB might actually stick the landing in a way where it can challenge some of the big boys in Infinity, but won't itself become overly strong. Although it does have a substantial issue versus hacking from what I can tell, which might be crippling.
Thx. Basicaly it should show how good the teamwork among the Zuyong is. And with Shang Ji have the same it is kinda obsolet in IA. And the Silvers have SO for that. The Kriza HMG did not have 360 Visor. Only MK12 has and pays a lot for it. Both are good additons. And they are well protected against Dam on BTS. That the Primaris is screwing the pure bonus is actualy a good thing. A full team of 5 still brings it on 15. In the case of silverstar overprime my thumb goes down for a) giving him a skill, that was taken away from a unit in the transition from N3 to 4 and has absolutly no counter. Remember: You got -3 on everything if the Optimus has you in his MSV1 sight and pulls the trigger. Able to shoot through smoke you down to a single eleven if you perform a PH 14 (which is usaly the highest) dodge. Even a Bolt sniper in a full pure team is down to 16 vs his 15. Thx. Found out for what the Moonbots are good. Providing camoflaged order, that are hard to dig out because they have teeth - yes they make good singery. A Cutter in cover hits the Optimus Silverprime (also in cover) in good range on 12. While Optimum Primares (in full team) hits back on 12 too. Not the best odds for a TAG with best visual mod in the game. Apart from that he also is not supported by some cheap warband with smoke. €dith: Correct - both are 12
