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Jammers are stupid, so what now?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Zewrath, May 17, 2019.

  1. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I haven't been yet, but that's the reputation.

    Funny, the Lithuanian player best known down here is a Nomad, so I assumed you guys were all space pirates up there. Good to hear the aliens have conquered some ground somewhere!
     
  2. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    That makes a fair amount of sense. Here it's mostly CA with an equal cut of PanO and JSA afterwards in commonality. But then again the metas differ between the two major cities here and then a third one has joined recently, so I genuinely have no proper bead on it.

    Would you believe me if I told you I've seen him play more PanO and CA than Nomads?
    I've heard from other players that the entire meta here shaped around the dude, what with most people getting into the game through him, but I'm still not sure honestly. I'm bad at reading the meta, especially considering my play style seems to differ a good bit from everyone elses... I'm really bad at taking advice.
     
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  3. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    There are a lot of ways to label something as "competitive."

    • Attitude/Sportsmanship
    • Event format
    • Event size

    • Attitude and Sportsmanship are probably the ugliest of these, because you can go to your LGS and find players with crappy attitudes that many would label as "competitive." Often, when we label a player's attitude or demeanor as "competitive", it has a negative connotation. I personally think you can play generously, in a gentlemanly and sportsmanlike fashion, and still be competitive... I.e. have every intention of winning your round and placing well in the event.

    • Event format. As mentioned a few posts back, the more variables or specifics you add to a tournament format, the more you skew it in favor of certain armies, certain builds, etc. There are certain missions that skew so hard in certain directions, it narrows the playing field and restricts open competition. Looting & Sabotage is a good example of a mission that shouldn't have a place in an open competitive event, because it's too restrictive. "Event format" also includes playing more rounds and actively checking/policing tables to ensure good terrain placement.

    • Event size. This is a tricky one. If you have a small event with a high concentration of good players, they can be very competitive. It's very likely that many skilled players will be forced to play one another. That being said, smaller events are open to more meta manipulation... I've seen small events where players build lists geared towards probably encountering a certain opponent/matchup in a certain round. i.e. (real world example here) I'm very likely to run into Polynikes in Round 3, Transmission Matrix. I know he's a Combined Army player who favors Hacking-heavy with the E-Drone, and has very good tactics and strategy for playing Trans Matrix. As a result, I am going to tailor my army selection (and devote one entire list) to countering a Combined Army E-Drone in Transmission Matrix. That's not necessarily competitive.

    A situation like that isn't likely to happen in big events. As a result, they're a better expression of a competitive player applying their tactical / strategic acumen to a broad range of unknowns. It's a more "pure" expression of adaptive problem-solving, where meta counts for a lot less because you have dozens of metas colliding and creating unknown variables.
     
    #43 barakiel, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You'd be utterly wrong in your assumptions, I'm not from either continent. I'm speaking from experience with the Warmachine community, the North American competitive scene had the stronger and more cut throat tournaments with more high level players attending them, mostly due to geography reasons. This is despite there not actually being a particular disparity between any continent's best players in terms of skill everyone was basically on an even footing however the American events always had more of the recognised named players attending them compared to events anywhere else.



    This is the main reason I consider the NA events more competitive. By nature of being large, you're going to get more competitive players interested in traveling and attending. I hosted what, something like 7-10 events last season? None of them were large. Naturally nobody traveled more than a few hours to play. My events were very non competitive. Even if I had the greatest player in the country there (much like we have literally the second best warmachine player in the world play in local events for that game) the event would not be very competitive because there is no pool of highly skilled players to challenge that person.

    More people you bring in to a big event like that give you a more competitive event, better your chances are you have a bigger pool of high level players.
     
    #44 Triumph, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  5. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    So wait... have you -been- to Satellite events in the United States and/or in Europe?

    Innnnnteresting. So Vilnus, Kaunas, and Klaipeda?

    Well summarized. I guess the last one is what US players most tout. Definitely a lot of big events coming up in Spain as well though.

    Also I'm kind of agog that anyone can tweak lists for an opponent well in anything but a small local event. That sounds like a really cool effect of a highly skilled meta!
     
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  6. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Vilnius ( CA infested. ), Kaunas ( Hi there, it's me, ya boi, HI addict. ) and recently the town of Druskininkai has actually had a small playerbase just develop out of somewhere.

    Or an effect of a very stable meta.
    if there's one thing I can say about this meta, there are two things that can be assumed to be 95% times as true:
    If enemy runs fireteams, they're defensive at least partially.
    They will have a TR bot.
     
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  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't believe that's relevant in terms of having the ability to check the sizes of the events.
     
  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I would say what is competitive is subjective and has many interpretations.

    I would not compare Warmachine meta with Infinity meta though, the fact one is a strategic game and the other a tactical game dictate entirely different definition on what is competitive.
     
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  9. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    @Savnock
    I've been to a decent number of US Satellite tournaments, so I have some thoughts about them.

    Big US events attract a lot of players at a variety of skill levels, because US tournaments try to be inclusive (bring in a lot of folks, everyone is welcome) and are not exclusive.

    As a result, big US events are very diverse. There will be some very talented players fighting for top tables, then there will be a midfield with a broad range of experienced players, and then a large range of newer or less experienced players. So the skill level and capability is very diverse at a big US event, since everyone is encouraged to attend regardless of competitive experience, and encouraged to have fun. This is pretty different from many game systems I've seen, where casual players don't really feel like they have a place in large events.
     
    #49 barakiel, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    In general, the larger the number of players in a tournament, the greater the number of really good players likely to be there.

    So when you have something like 8x 150+ player Infinity tournaments in the US alone, that does say something about the potential of running into really good players. (Though we should really be comparing the US to the entire EU for this, just to get distances and populations about the same size)


    IMO, the key skill is actually the ability to read terrain, not so much military experience. I'm not good at it despite being a (Navy) veteran and longtime gamer, but a couple friends that are Army and Marine veterans are much better at reading terrain despite relatively lower years experience gaming.




    Exactly. That's an important point.
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    That appears to be an Infinity thing generally, the exact same description could be applied to large Infinity events over here, and indeed to every Interplanetario so far.
     
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  12. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    It is definitely relevant to holding forth on the relative levels of competitiveness between continents.

    Good perspective, thank you. One of the best things about Infinity tourneys is that inclusiveness. It's part of why I don't like elimination events (unless there is an open bar and great hiking right there, which is the case for the European Infinity Championship on Mallorca every year... seriously best setting I've ever even heard of for an event!). It's great to see absolute newbs having a good time on world-class tables, right next to the dudes who are best at it in the world.

    Agreed about what should be compared: US to entire EU. And in the EU, you get a much more diverse playerbase, really varied styles due to very different national psychologies (and yes, that's a thing. Trust me, I spend most of my workdays trying not to be drawn into French despair and having them shake their heads at my yankee Dunning-Krugerism that nonetheless gets stuff done). The US has a lot of "oorah." The EU has a lot of élan. Neither leads to more "competitive" play than the other, along the several (very good) definitions people have given here.

    Added to the list of things I want to get better at. By "read terrain" do you mostly mean access routes and cover?

    Agreed, but with even more cultural diversity and variation of approaches to the game over here from what I've seen, not just diversity in levels of ability.

    But then maybe things in the US have changed in the last couple years: looks like regional metas have gotten way, way stronger over there thanks partly to the Dire States events.

    Americans, would you say there is more cohesion and character in your regional metas these days? Or any other particular change in how the regional metas act or feel?
     
  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    And where a sniper might be. And a hacker. And how can you be pinned in the future, when it's the opponent's turn, how will he move, how to prevent tha move and direct it ina more favourable way to you...

    In short, the chess trope of being several moves ahead, but regarding terrain and its use.
     
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  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Mostly, but xagroth's post below is better at explaining it.


    It's not easy.
     
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