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Jammers are stupid, so what now?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Zewrath, May 17, 2019.

  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Stealth doesn’t work vs. Sixth Sense
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Also, CAN Jam Markers :p
    (In active turn)
     
  3. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    How can they Jam markers? Doesn't it need to at least be discovered even if out of LoS?
     
  4. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Some ideas that worked for me:

    -jammer can make an intuitive against a camo marker, but hey a jammer in a link is still a full order action. Bait the oponent with a camo and shot the link free with a hac tao in hidden deployment.

    - In active, shotgun guilang/kanren to face to face roll.

    -In reactive, long range aro. Mines (mines isolated can still explote).

    -a kamikaze Warbands in general can be worth it
     
  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    The good news is that if a Jammer is up in the midfield using full link bonuses, it also means 5 guys have left their DZ. So even though the Jammer is nasty, you can hopefully punish the full link team and score those kills.

    If the Jammer is protecting the enemy backfield, you just try to ignore that and get a headstart on finishing the scenario.

    The Krakot's not very expensive, and is only Regular Impetuous, so you can even keep it safe for 2 turns. If your opponent attempts to position the Jammer in Turn 3 for a strong end-game defense, you'll still have the Krakot alive as a useful tool. All of those template weapons will probably be very scary for the rest of the Jammer's link team too.
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I would first accept the fact that Interplanetario is a non competitive, fun, themed event, that CB uses to show off special rules and that there are going to be some relatively stupid or broken stuff in the rules and that not every faction is going to cope with this as well as others. If you want to have the best chance of winning the event pick a faction that is either least affected by the theme's bullshit or benefits the most from it.

    It's kinda stupid but the fact is the Satellite events you play to qualify for Interplanetario are more competitive than the final event itself, particularly those stateside. But it is what it is.

    As far the linked Jammer goes if you're really concerned about it play a camo heavy list into it so you can run past the Jammer's ZOC and shoot it from a different angle once it comes out of the DZ. As far as digging massed Jammers out of their deployment zone goes that's mostly a lost cause. The only way you can do that is to either use spec fire, so play ISS, or build a Smart Missile list which is pretty gimmicky. They're fun though and probably nobody will see it coming either.


    Intuitive Attack.
     
  7. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Agreed, the more special rules and unusual scenarios you pack into an event, the more you dilute every faction's ability to compete on (more or less) equal footing. One of the things I've always liked about Infinity as a competitive system is that many ITS lineups don't require you to play a certain faction. When missions or formats get picked that heavily skew one way or another, is destroys one of the best elements of the game.
     
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  8. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    When a unit uses a bs attack with a jammer does it hit every enemy model in its ZoC or just 1 target?
     
  9. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    One.
     
  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The jammer has the "intuitive attack" label. So....

    And rolling at 17-18, the marker will Reset unless it's a mine, because 10% at best of not being revealed :( (BTS roll)

    Also, Morat is Veteran N1 + Religious troop, so they ignore Jammer (because they also are not HI)

    Considering it's inside the ELO, and the amount of people playing, and those people's ELO... It's "non-competitive" only for those who care little for the competitive aspect of the game.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I would argue the complete opposite, it's competitive for people who care less about game balance and are just there to roll dice the same way 40k players consider their events competitive. For people who care about that on a more anal level will naturally find the event non competitive.
     
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  12. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    You probably right that some extra like limited insertion, and maybe spec op, and some scenario will favor some factions over others. And I also agree that is not great, especially as a player dedicated to playing factions I like rather than the last / most powerful faction for the missions.

    But we also know for a fact that some of the most played competitive games are very unbalanced between factions (not to say units within a faction). 40k / warmachine come to mind (disclaimer : not meaning these games are bad btw). Not sure if that is relevant when it comes to competitiveness. Also maybe competitiveness definition will change according to who you ask.

    Also, how do you know for sure that satellites, especially statesides (I guess that mean USA), are more competitive ?

    PS : I don't mean to start a dick size contest here. Just would like to read your arguments.
     
  13. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Unfortunately, that's a different issue. The core issue is not mere favoring, but one of the elements ere being totally broken. Linked Jammers are a hole in the game, one bad enough that almost any match against them other than Annihilation will be at a severe disadvantage. If it involves occupying a central area or hitting objectives in a central area, or a specific target period, loinked Jammers will make that a lot harder.

    Krakots, Shaolin monks, and Spec Fire are probably the better answers. Sadly all of the above will also need to be matched with a crapton of orders, as you'll have to kill all 5 guys in a Haqq link to be sure you got the Jammer.

    Facing Haqq or Pan O at Interplanetario is going to suck, as in way-less-fun suckage. I'm thinking about bringing StarCo again just because they have the best broken Spec Fire option. Emily is also in the unbalanced bin (though way less so than linked Jammers), but against one form of broken sometimes another form of broken is the only answer. I guess I get to play thematic, fun games with the other list, and keep the Emily Grenade Special for whenever Haqq or Pan O guys are across the table.
     
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  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Satellites in general are more competitive than IP because they use the standard rules set that has better balance, not with the extras like limited insertion or the new spec ops rules that impact different factions very differently.

    In general I would consider the North American events more competitive just by nature of they holding more, and having larger events with a bigger pool of players (Rumble, etc) and it's easier for their competitive communities to cross pollinate through travel with no language barrier. While Spain holds many events, it's probably difficult for their players to travel to and integrate with the Russian community for example and their top players are unlikely to clash much. In comparison, top North American players are likely to meet between different conventions between the US and Canada.

    I'm not saying the quality of players between any continent are better, just a North American event is more likely to have more high level players attending vs lower level players due to accessibility.
     
    #34 Triumph, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    HI has nothing to do with it, jammers are not EM
     
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  16. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Question: Have you -been- to Interplanetario? Have you been to other European Satellites? If so, I'm quite confused why you would think what you just wrote.

    You have a bunch of completely incorrect assumptions and conclusions here. America does have some great players. Those same US winners don't win the top spots at competitions over here very often when they attend. And feeling/acting like you are more competitive does not mean you are more competitive.

    Geography is not a barrier to competitive quality or spirit: I am guessing you are American, and not terribly aware of geography, are used to the ridiculous travel situation over there, etc. I say this as a fellow American. It is easier to get to Vigo from, say, where I live in far northern France than it is to get to Rumble from Seattle. Europe is generally easier to cross and access than the US, due to having better travel infrastructure. While you have to take planes or drive, we have that plus trains (including bullet trains that make nearby countries easier to get to than planes), many bus lines (way better than Greyhound) and better public transit in even smaller cities. And airports are a lot more casual and friendly than they are in the US.

    Language is not a barrier to competitive quality or spirit: Likewise you are forgetting that unlike Americans, most educated Europeans (the vast majority of the Infinity playerbase) speak multiple languages, English being the main one in common. And they are used to dealing with other cultures in social situations, again unlike yanks. I've played games in French, Spanish, and English here, and some with players who speak only a tiny bit of any of the above. It works fine, and is plenty competitive.

    In fact, having the chance to face people who think and play very differently is much easier in Europe than in the US. And it should build -more- flexibility and adaptability, and expose you to more learning experiences. I'm really looking forward to playing in the hardcore Polish meta soon, for a dose of pressure. Many French play with a lot of finesse and think well about later turns compared to average yanks IME. The Spaniards love a super, super brutal alpha strike and are way good at finding swing-y elements and exploiting them (lots of similar broken-ish lists in what I've faced).

    The Spanish play -hard-, and I would say are more competitive both in spirit and ability than the Americans overall. I actually don't care for how hardcore competitive some of them feel, and they're not as jolly as anglophones, as easygoing as Germans, or as considerate as the French.

    So why do Americans perceive themselves as more competitive overall? And why might some of them be very good?

    The main difference I see is that Americans take the game really seriously, putting us on a level with the Spanish.

    As for actual skill: We also have more of a hardcore gamer culture from what I understand, so more of us grew up playing Squad Leader etc. There's just more of that stuff in the US, and more competition to hone your skills against traditionally. Then there's the many of us who have actual military experience, which I have noticed is a theme among the best US players I have encountered (and gotten the crap kicked out me by) at Interplanetario and elsewhere.

    There is also an unfortunate amount of macho and largely baseless aggression in US culture compared to European cultures. It sometimes makes people doing silly things like playing toy soldiers take it too seriously, and sometimes to overestimate their own abilities as macho tends to do. The Infinity crowd are way, way cooler than other gamer cultures that I've seen in the US, but even with us there is an overall tinge of that d*ck-swinging American thing. I also notice it in other types of games, when playing at Gen Con vs. Essen for example.

    These factors build both skill and a tendency to take toy soldiers pretty seriously. Do not confuse the former with the latter.
     
    #36 Savnock, May 20, 2019
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The Madrid meta, in particular, is incredibly competitive.
     
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  18. Pyra

    Pyra Warmongering Potatoe

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    I agree that tournaments without "extras" are the best for competitive integrity. Having a big player pool speaking the same language is also an advantage of states but I disagree on "big" events are best for competition.

    USA might have a bigger number of better players due too share numbers of overall participants but as I have seen some results and numbers from those big events - they do not have the best competitive wise format. There are simple too many players and not enough rounds to show who is the best player.

    At Rumble after 5th round there was still 4/5 players which won every single of their games - so the final results were decided just on OP points which are far too random (depends who and what you are playing against or if enemy was a dick and when he realised he will definitely lose - he is just denying points). A good competitive format should have more than 5 battles in such a case.

    Anyways there is no tool to compare different metas except actually playing in them and trying to see how other ppl play. Sadly but ITS ranking is easily abusable and many great players just do not care to participate in it. Wish there was a proper ETC level Infinity event to see who's the best in the world.
     
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  19. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Is it really that hardcore? I've only heard hearsay about it from up a bit further North here in Lithuania ( Granted I have no idea how to even describe our own meta beyond Combined Army and leaving it at that. ). Is it really that serious over there?
     
  20. Pyra

    Pyra Warmongering Potatoe

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    It is really nothing special. From my point of view, as one of the more active and competitive players from Poland, we apparently are overusing spammy armies, which can be viewed as 'hardcore' and not fun way to play. Army wise, PanO's/Haqq/Nomads are usually on top (but it really depends what armies are played by top players).
     
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