So serious question, do Infiltrating Grunts still have a spot? There are some interesting applications for this. SWC wasn't as critical in US and there used to be a lot of room for them. However, now is that still the case? In most missions, Marauders are starting 4 inches away from the center, in 4 they are regular infiltrators. They have heavy flamers and rifles still. All of their weapons can start off in their good range band. The core and Haris version just become very important. Both will eat a good chunk of your SWC. Maverick FOs, now can reach midfield turn 1. With two of them, you can potential score half the objectives on the table unopposed with their impetuous moves. Maverick LRL can start off in its good range band, right away. While not costing SWC, Rosie and Rifle Grunts also start up closer. Rosie is the same benefits as Marauders utilizing the better range band. Rifle grunts are also very interesting by now being one order away from going into supression and hitting everything outside of their deployment zone in the good range band. This is pretty huge. It make me think, do I go for the hail mary that I only successed with 40% of the time? Yes its good and the flamers become good cheerleaders. Or do I go more rifles and leave more suppression down? It will be interesting to see if how this change really performs.
My take: yes, definitely. Taking two of them will not cost an arm and a leg SWC-wise and has a decent (roughly 2 in 3) chance one of them will succeed and will cause a LOT of trouble for your opponent. If not, you have a couple of DZ guardians. Marauder Haris will cost you 2.5 SWC, the core maybe the same. Grunts HMG 1 SWC, Sniper 0.5 SWC. You still have SWC (1-2) to spend and not much to spend on. Obviously you can't have them all, but that's the point in spending points in army building.
Exclusion zones are still a thing in 6 missions, so yes, the possibility of 11 point heavy flamethrowers in front of your opponents deployment zone is good. Also if deploying second you can try to place those grunts next to your opponents forward deployed MI.
Serious answer - are we playing the same game? Inferior Inflitration Grunts perform a different role from a the other pieces you mentioned - Area Denial. None of the aformentioned models, even Marauders in near-total Infiltration, will be able to be set up in such a way to: a) prevent the enemy from deploying in a given spot, lest they take immediate Flamer AROs b) be able to use the Flamer in 1 Order. All the other models did get better, true. II Grunts are still an auto-include. Also, I was surprised at how you said that SWC is a non-issue in USARF. In my experience, you will always run short, because: a) Blackjack is expensive (I Run HMG) b) Grunt LT is expensive (saving on points at the cost of SWC) c) II Grunts are expensive (Usually taking 3 or 4) d) Your Link will Eat up the rest (be it Haris or Defensive link, Haris being interchangeable with the BJ) SWC Cap on II Grunts is a natural balance mechanism, where you can't just take 10 and spam the enemy's DZ.
Same game, different playstyle. In case you (well, not you, apparently) prefer a defensive Grunt core loaded with snipers (0.5 SWC per sniper) and abhore Haris fireteam (I love them, but for the sake of argument let's assume!) and load on agressive but SWC-wise cheap rambo units (Roger, Devil Dogs, SMG Airborne Ranger) and mid-field troublemakers like Desperados, Hardcases and Foxtrots you will not spend too much SWC. Now the new rules favour (hugely) Marauders and playing Grunts agressively (loading on SWC-wise relatively expensive HMGs in lieu snipers). Both units are fairly expensive SWC-wise. The question was related to our opinion wether these units will eat up too much SWC to have a spare for a couple of II Grunts. Your answer was no. Mine was no, too. Is all, dude! Cheers!
As TDA put it, US is the 0.5 SWC faction. Lots of options are cheap and lots of good weapons don't cost any SWC at all. Outside the blackjack, the other 2 SWC options aren't worth it. Without II Grunts you usually can have a few SWC left. 60% of the time grunts are SWC costing grunts that deploy somewhere wonky only providing an order. We have all had games where they all land in the perfect spot. I just did the nova tournaments and played around ten games in a weekend. I had two games where I managed to pull off what you described and I sometimes took 3 grunts per game. Even if they land, there is no guarantee each game that they will pull off something truly decisive. Most of the time they suck up a few orders. Usually my opponents just bring up other models to hit the grunt in the butt from a distance ending the threat. I am not saying it isn't a good choice, but usually you are just filling out your SWC left you take them. The issue is will you have SWC left? Marauders especially may be significantly better at the area denial job. Instead of one corner in cover, you could put a Fire Team Haris or Core right on someones door step. No other faction in the game can deploy a fire team that far forward. In this sample list, I built it thinking area denial in mind. With two MSV1 HRL B2 each at +3 range for the entire deployment zone and dogged. Tall buildings are usually in the center. If you get a two story building which it is likely you can you can potentially hit basically everything not in total cover, while yourself being in cover. You still have a sniper wall. You still have the previously mention Suppressive fire wall and foxtrot mine field. This all has the potential to be a just as good at area denial, while also being fully reliable.
I never responded to your post, but seeing how you quickly got defensive, I might as well now. I play 2 sniper and Rosie, together with Hardcases and Foxtrots. As you may have noticed I mentioned the BlackJack, as well. Lists that have less than 5 SWC ALWAYS have room for improvement, imo. And II grunts provide exactly that, cheap filler for leftover SWC. Although similar, it's not the same. IIGrunts work the same regardless if you go first or second. Foxtrots with mines or Supp Fire Marauders don't.
Interesting. When playing vanilla Ariadna I can't remember the last time I maxed out SWC. Normally 2 HMG Spetsnaz, 2 Minelayer Chasseur and mybe 2 II Grunts and that's it...
Then you've got spot for: Cateran, whichever version ParaCommando HMG A Maverick with an SWC cost Or degrading one Kazak to a Blackjack (grasping at straws here). Any of these bar the Specnaz->Blackjack would be a good addition, depending what else would have to get the cut, though. IMO regular Ariana is the most frozen-list faction out there, as 80% of the list will always be the same, if you want to play competitively.
I had my thoughts about the list and here’s what I came up with. Grunts forming a link after marauders inevitably die on their duty.
@Alkasyn Funny fact: I have tried all of them ('cept for Blackjack) and was not happy with the outcome... I prefer Paracommando/6th Airborne FO or Roger when it comes to AD. No luck with Cati and even less with the Maverick. I admit I never tried the Blackjack because I do not own the model but given the high pricetag I am fairly sceptic regarding this guy. (I am not against proxies in general but substituting a S2 HMG vielding guy for a S5 semiTAG was off the table for me.) All these guys were (pointswise) just too expensive for what they did. Camo spam day in, day out!... Different players - different playstyles. For the record I disagree with your observation of Ariadna being monobuild. Yup, double HMG Spetsnaz & Chasseur is as close to autoinclude as one can get in Infinity, but that's it. I prefer playing a sea of camo markers and never go below 20 orders, my fellow Ariadna player prefers 10 order lists. Cheers!
Uxia, 2 Chasseurs, 2 II grunts, 2 Specnaz, 2Cal Volunteers, 2-3 Irmandhinos, 2-3 Line Kazak Something like this is probably all auto-include. In the list below, the CG 1 is what I consider auto-include, more or less. Then you are left with a handful of points to get 4 more orders and you still have 1.5 SWC to spend, I added all the other units I'd like to play, but that also depends on the mission. CG1 will play well in any type of mission, there's specialists, camo spam, 2 Obligatory fool-proof Specnaz and of course Uxia, the bane of Links. Ariadna ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 12 2 2 UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27) SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38) SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38) VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6) VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11) CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) IRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8) IRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8) LINE KAZAK Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) LINE KAZAK Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) LINE KAZAK Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) GROUP 2 3 3 MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 12) 112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12) MÉTRO (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) CATERAN Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 21) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
Interesting. Other than the chasseur and a spetsnaz, the rest of those are pretty optional to me. Occasionally I’ll try the grunts and irmandhinos, but by no means autoinclude. I regularly bring foxtrots, airborne rangers, vet kazaks, and antipodes with a lot of success.
