Yeah, this is normally my position. We're primarily players of the game and should avoid constant wishlisting, especially when that spills over into negativity about how our own pet wish hasn't appeared even though we've repeated it twelve times over 3 years. It's a shame that ST has been passed by in the link refresh that seems to have carefully made a lot of units more viable. He's not as bad as the peanut gallery makes him out to be, and I've had the sniper version win a game for me in N4. MSV1 is actually really useful for barring firelanes to Motorized Bounty Hunters, and he can be a really solid shooter to work into a coordinated order with Major Lunah. There might be some mileage in building an 11 order group with a Su Jian duo and Taowu in it to launch an alpha strike and have a decoy for your LT. The drop in the number of high BS linked hmgs (as not every link will be pure) means that the sniper is more survivable vs a lot of linked shooters now.
Lmao ok this is technically true, but also utterly terrible advice at the same time. Yes he technically became more survivable. He's still fucking terrible as an ARO piece. This is Sun Tze sniper vs a run of the mill BS13 HMG in a mixed core. 66% to take 1W, 37% to straight up DIE, and only 10% to actually win the F2F This is really good advice on how to get your Strategos LT killed. Surprise, being ARM2 and rolling 1 dice on 14s vs a core linked HMG that's chucking five on 14s at you isn't favourable.
Haha, bait you couldn’t refuse. But now try and assume that you saw their link go down first and reserve dropped ST in a place where they couldn’t immediately engage it with their core link in a good range band. Or did you forget that Multi Snipers have longer range than hmg? Just because he can deny a fire lane to an MBH doesn’t mean you have to expose him to the whole table. Here’s something I’m going to try for a pick up game of Capture and Protect tomorrow. For fun, after musing on this thread. There’s a guaranteed 11 orders in group one to feed the Su Jian and MBH, with Taowu’s counterintelligence and Sun’s WIP 17 for your initiative roll. You can reserve the two of them without spending a command token even if you’re going second. Taowu can pretend to be a second Sun Tze, and I’ll make sure I don’t just hand my LT straight into the hands of an hmg link. CoC would be good, but I’ll make do without it. There’s also a pretty good/funny coordinated order with ST, Lunah, Taowu and the Su Jian PF. Imperial Service ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 1 1 SUN TZE v2 (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 51) TÁOWÙ (Counterintelligence) Nanopulser(+2B), Flash Pulse(+1B) / Viral Pistol(+1B), Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25) SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31) YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) ZHÀNYING (Hacker, Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 25) BOUNTY HUNTER Sniper Rifle / Breaker Pistol(+1B), PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 19) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) MAJOR LUNAH VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29) SÙ-JIÀN Heavy Shotgun(+1B), Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 50) PANGGULING (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15) BOUNTY HUNTER Red Fury / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 15) GROUP 2 4 2 CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
Good luck. I hope you don't go up against a lot of camo. Do you know what you are going against? You have good defense for your beacon but are you relying on just SJ and MBH to get the enemy beacon?
What kind of moron deploys their core HMG link into a corner where it can be trapped in bad rangebands by an MSR if they don't have an exit strategy with some kind of vision blocking template? (With that said the same unit is still 41% vs 24% to brute force their way out on B5 8s vs B1 14s because Sun Tze is a crap ARO unit. The person is still a total idiot for that kind of deployment though) He actually gets his ass beat by MBH packing the Red Fury. I reiterate, Sun Tze is a crap ARO unit. Putting him out on ARO duty is asking to get your Strategos LT killed. If you have him watching a firelane, even a shorter one that doesn't look past near the midline of the table your opponent is incredibly incentivised to send something to kill your LT because he's shit at defending himself and a high value target to kill. Sun Tze is a trash tier ARO unit and a mediocre, badly overcosted, high risk low reward active turn unit. Knauf is the kind of template for a good active turn solo sniper. Mimetism and +1B on his shooting have a massive effect on his active turn output with his MSR.
It's actually pretty cool to see ISS got some fresh wind! Can't wait to play it against anyone, it looks sooo much cooler than before definitely.
I'll have to take another look at the Pheasant Red Fury now that she is an option for Dakini and L&O haris. She's still pretty expensive, but she does contribute TacAware, CoC and high burst to act as a secondary firing solution...
TacAware and NCO are two skills that can move mountains to get poorly optimised units off the bench if they have a half decent fireteam they can be a pack mule for.
And nevertheless, I was able to pretty much get a turn one victory last night with my collection of trash tier units. The only linked hmg on the table was in a Kamau haris ("yeah... what kind of moron... blah blah blah", I'm sure your opponents must appreciate this kind of analysis of their deployment) and I lined up AROs on the Kamau sniper in that fireteam with Sun Tze, Lunah, a Su Jian Panzerfaust and the burst two ABH sniper. I reserve dropped Sun Tze and Lunah and having two msv1 AROs lined up on the kamau sniper and locking that haris down was pretty nasty. It split burst and killed the ABH, but Lunah knocked it down with a viral shot. It might have been possible for my opponent to trade sniper Sun Tze for his own sniper when I did this, but as it played out I was fine. Sun traded a couple more split burst AROs with an incoming MBH and dropped himself prone. With 11 remaining orders in my group 1, I was then able to use the Su Jian and MBH duo to grab a Capture and Protect objective, kill 3/4 of an orc core link, kill a zulu cobra and also the enemy MBH. It's pretty devastating having that many orders to feed those super mobile guys, and the mix of a relatively unhackable bike to murder hackers and then the heavy shotgun for hard targets is brutal. This wasn't a top tier tournament game, but a practice game in-store with a relatively new player. It's fine to leave some vulnerabilities in your list, and if your opponent spots them and successfully exploits them then they can put you on the back foot. The same list with a pheasant hacker instead of the zhanying is quite a bit better, as you then don't really care if you lose Sun Tze. Knauf is a obviously a better sniper, but ST was there to grant MSV1 multi sniper ARO as part of a larger ARO trap and he facilitated that by providing a double reserve drop. He also provided a brutal 12 order pool for the Su Jian duo, and as I'd lost my ABH sniper in turn one would have let me move a rem from order pool 2 to top it up for free, so I could gone from 11 to 12 orders again without spending a command token.
Buddy, this shit here is why you're copping flak. You come in here with snark about peanut galleries, posing god awful suggestions as tactical advice from your games at the LGS literally noob stomping new players making classic new player mistakes.... "This bad idea that will get your LT probably killed is a great idea, because it's a weakness that a new player can exploit!" I don't even.... what?
Look, some lessons are best taught by example. "don't activate a model if it has more AROs lined up on it than it has active burst" is one that is going to have to click sometime. The player in question has requested that we don't pull punches in teaching him. This isn't just a "noob stomping list", I think it could work fairly well in a tournament setting. You're the one posting false equivalencies about Knauf being a better sniper and ignoring all the advantages of list synergy, strategos and order group optimization. The same four long range AROs I used to create an ARO trap are also capable of doing a coordinated order to remove a strong ARO threat, opening the table up for the Su Jian duo to move. Strategery ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 1 1 SUN TZE v2 (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 51) TÁOWÙ (Counterintelligence) Nanopulser(+2B), Flash Pulse(+1B) / Viral Pistol(+1B), Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25) SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31) YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) BOUNTY HUNTER Sniper Rifle / Breaker Pistol(+1B), PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 19) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, E/Mitter ( ) / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 30) MAJOR LUNAH VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29) SÙ-JIÀN Heavy Shotgun(+1B), Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 50) PANGGULING (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15) BOUNTY HUNTER Red Fury / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 15) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) GROUP 2 4 3 CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) 5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army But yeah, let's see what your ideal N4 ISS list is... what particular axe do you have to grind here?
@YueFei23 I tried to re-create your list in ARMY. I am constantly 15 points over with the Pangalang. Not sure if the error is my side of yours. Spoiler: Re-build ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 1 1 SUN TZE v2 (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 51) TÁOWÙ (Counterintelligence) Nanopulser(+2B), Flash Pulse(+1B) / Viral Pistol(+1B), Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25) SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31) YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) BOUNTY HUNTER Sniper Rifle / Breaker Pistol(+1B), PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 19) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, E/Mitter ( ) / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 30) MAJOR LUNAH VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29) SÙ-JIÀN Heavy Shotgun(+1B), Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 50) MOTORIZED BOUNTY HUNTER Red Fury / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 15) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) GROUP 2 4 3 CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) 5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Anyway, what I wanted to suggest and ask was the following: -Do you need the Sophetect? I don't see the synergy of her within the list, personally, I find too often people try wedge her into ISS lists. ISS lists are often fragile and she can provide some redundancy, however, I feel you need to lean into Dakinis/Rems or Wu-ming to validate her in a list. -If you're taking Taiwu to holomask for Sun Tzu, i'd strongly consider taking Kenran/shockmines instead. Same cost, however, it gives you option to holomask in your DZ with camo marker (providing additional Luna threat) or if you're going first or playing a list where you don't feel the enemy has ways to assassinate your Sun Tzu, you can still go and forward deploy. I like Taiwu, but i don't think he is good solo, i think he benefits a lot from getting a free ride up the board and then peeling off to do shit. - Similar to the question to the Sophie, do you need the EVO? What's the synergy? - Lastly, what are the models you are prepared to move into group 2 to do work and make use of orders? Here is my take on your list, if you're interested :) Spoiler: Alternative ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 2 SUN TZE v2 (Lieutenant [+1 Command Token]) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 51) KǍNRÈN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle, Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse, Madtraps / Pistol, CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 21) PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Tactical Awareness) Red Fury / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 31) SÙ-JIÀN Heavy Shotgun(+1B), Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 50) LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower(+1B) ( | Deployable Repeater) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 24) MAJOR LUNAH VIRAL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29) WARCOR (Sixth Sense) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) GROUP 2 6 4 GARUDA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 20) CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) 4.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army I think the list will struggle against TAGs. However, I think the harris that pushes into midfield will have more protection thanks to madtraps. The Garuda, Lu Duan and Su Jian can all benefit from the orders in group 2. The Kanren does similar role to Taiwu, whilst being able to do double duty. The Warcor's order can be converted almost every round as you got Strat 2 + 5 command tokens. Anyway, good luck!
I know what the problem is - I'm building for Capture and Protect, so the MBH is free in my list, and lets the first order group push to 11 models. Answers to some of the other stuff: I like to run a Sophotect for a list with a Su Jian in it. Fixing up the Su Jian if it gets isolated or immobilised, or just damaged, could get your game back on the rails. Also with the multiple snipers I was running, healing one of them up could work. I didn't plan to push my haris into midfield, instead saving that job for the Su Jian and MBH. My haris had the ABH sniper and a hacker I planned to leave covering my C&P beacon, so was a defensive team. Also I had three sniper rifles and the Su Jian panzerfaust to put into a coordinated order if I needed it, and plenty of command tokens to rebuild links. The list could struggle against tags, but ARO trapping a Tag with MSRs can work pretty well. The heavy shotgun works nicely in close, obviously. Again, the coordinated order above would work well here - if a tag throws an EXP shot into Sun Tze he can laugh off one of those. I recently played a game where an ABH sniper in a haris picked up an MSR with his booty roll and killed a maghariba guard with it... It's easy to overlook, but Sun Tze's WIP 17 means he should win about 75% of his initiative rolls versus WIP 14, if you want to go first you've got a great chance of doing so. You don't really need the EVO, but you can put fairy dust on the Su Jian and reload his Panzerfaust. Taowu brings the counterintelligence and a decoy. It might actually better to take the Kanren with mines, now you mention it, as that helps stop a Clipsos or Ninja running off with your beacon. The philosophy of the list is to not build lots of links to split your order pools and advance, but to rely on the Su Jian and MBH as a well supported, fast-moving quarterback as much as possible. If you're going first you can drop those two down as your reserves, and if you're going second you can drop Lunah and Sun Tze to get AROs on things without opening them up to too much enemy firepower. This definitely isn't a take all comers list that works for every mission, but is tailored somewhat to Capture and Protect or Rescue - something where you need to go somewhere fast and maybe even get back again. Something similar would work for Unmasking if you added a button pusher.
P.S. (look for the edit there... I went back and added more). Also, isn't it great that we get to duo a Su Jian with the free MBH this ITS season?
Oh yeah, it's more likely that you'd want to use ST to pull orders from the second group to replace casualties in the first rather than fuel something in the second, that way you can keep around 10-12 orders to fuel your Su Jian. You can also simply use the orders to position the Kuang Shi around your own beacon or even trading for enemy models that get into midfield.
@YueFei23 re; Sophie - if you've had success playing her your way, by all means keep on, keeping on. I simply see the Su-Jian racing down field and leaving her in the dust, so if it does get in trouble up the table - it would take ALOT of work to get it back up, imo. re; TAGs - I think the SJ or CC is your only real chance with TAGS, you simply cannot slow them down, both your list and mine. I think this is a big problem - see how it goes, i suppose. re; Sujian - I feel you're putting a lot of weight on this model to do ALOT for you. I would seriously consider giving yourself another avenue of attack, aside the BH/Su-Jian duo. Again though, that's me - play it your way :) re; Hacker - That's a good point in C&P - you want a hacker and a mine/madtrap forcing the enemy to deal with multiple counters - though i'd definitely try squeeze Xi-Zhaung into the harris then. re; Group 2 - You can't replenish group 1, as KS have to be in same group as CG controller, that's the difficulty - hence why i really do think it's better to have back up figures that can be moved into that pool to access those orders
It contributes an irregular order to the pool that can only be spent on it, unless you use a command token to convert it to a regular order. You can only spend regular orders on the duo. But yay, ST brings you an extra command token, so you’re golden!
You can also have it tag along with the Su Jian up the field, then spend it's own order to break from the Fireteam and do it's own thing. If you're choosing to gain cover/be unimpetuous then the MBH doesn't lose anything by leaving the Duo.
Yeah, the Su Jian is doing a lot, but does have the MBH along for the ride. If you get to the other side of the table and want to split them up, you can do that. If one of them dies the other gives you a second chance to complete the mission. I’m not sure if the sophotect will always pull its weight, but if someone pitchers and isolates your Su Jian in your DZ it’ll definitely save the day. You’re right about peeling off Kuang Shi to the first group. Perhaps keeping a chaiyi yaokong in there is worthwhile. You could pop Taowu over if you want to attach with him, or the MBH if you want to split up the duo and attack in different directions. I doubt I’ll play things exactly this way too many times, there’s too many fun new builds to experiment with.
