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ISS Fireteam Changes

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Knauf, Mar 24, 2022.

  1. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Also, you don't have to clear the midfield. If a clipsos pops out to scare a marksmanship buffed Rui Shi, that's pretty much a free dead clipsos for you!

    Tohaa didn't gain any impersonators until late N3 with the launch of Spiral.
     
  2. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Well not quite those numbers; you've got the Sukeul using her breaker pistol at 0-8" while the Rui Shi is firing the spitfire at 8-24". So the Sukeul would be 2 dice on 4's, so she'd probably elect to dodge, but that's neither here nor there; you've won the ARO battle at that point anyways.


    True, but I didn't play before Spiral released; I'm not really familiar with the game prior.

    As for the Clipsos, the problem is the BSG version. The more typical FO version isn't going to take that fight, but a BSG catching you out of cover on BS 17 (or, in N4, auto-hitting with the DTW) while you're in a -3 Range Band can be quite scary.

    Regardless I think the conversation has drifted somewhat from "ISS attack pieces" to "Strategy vs. Tohaa."

    Personally, I think both the Hsien HMG and Rui Shi have their merits. The Rui Shi is a lot more efficient, but 1 wound, 10 PH, and 0 ARM make it a heck of a glass cannon. It's easy to repair, but considering ISS is apparently allergic to Engineers that advantage can be difficult to realize. Hsien also gets easy access to Haris bonus via CSU/ABH.
     
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  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    DTW spam is one of the reasons my Rui Shi which was a constant workhorse in N3 got put out to pasture in N4.

    That said kinda considering bring it back in IA because it fireteams now.
     
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  4. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Yeah, I'm sad the Rui Shi is taking a bit of a break now. The order group changes, hacking changes and smoke launcher range bands all made it a tiny bit worse. It also got a bit more competition in ISS from MBH, Kunai SMR, Garuda FO and various haris choices. Units that pack their own vismods are much more order efficient than things that need a sequence of buffs to work.

    Really the thing that makes it hardest to use is the move of assisted fire from regular hacking devices to evo only, which means you have to dedicate two of your 15 spots to it and can't just power it up with a general-purpose hacker in a link. And DTW spam, which makes sense even though it got better at dodging.
     
    #184 YueFei23, Apr 14, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2022
  5. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    The upside to Rui Shi needing an EVO remote is that you can play “do I indeed have a Garuda?” headgames a bit more easily.

    That said, I enjoy the Hsien MMMR Haris sommuch that the Rui Shi is a bit redundant unless you need 2x MSV hunter teams (playing against Ariadna, Shas, Nomads). Having Sensor, MSV2, hacking, and deployables all in the same team forces some nasty can’t-win choice trees. Even without Sensor (using Xi to get an FO in there for specialist missions or to save points), the Haris is still pretty potent.

    The Lu Duan is also a decent choice for cheaper MSV sweepers if you’re packing a GML. The deployable repeater is a nice little defensive bump if you’re going second, as are the holoechoes.
     
  6. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    Aaah the lu Duan, I have very fond memories of my lu Duan advancing in smoke and burning an entire observance Haris with kusanagi, an nco HMG Moira and a costodier as well as avicenna that came to pick up kusanagi to charcoal. Msv 1, smoke and the HFT are nasty.
     
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  7. KGG

    KGG Well-Known Member

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    How do you make use of Taowu with the new fireteam changes?
    Who/what do you mask him as and what's his purpose?
     
  8. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Well, whatever he does, he always brings counterintelligence. If you get him on the table and have an alpha strike of some kind, he'll do that job.

    Then, either he makes a good reactive base guard capable of popping a viral pistol into a bear or dog, or you can try and put him in a link that wants to advance up the table doing damage and opportunistically cc things when you get there.


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]3
    CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13)
    DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 33)
    TÁOWÙ (Counterintelligence) Nanopulser(+2B), Flash Pulse(+1B) / Viral Pistol(+1B), Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
    1.5 SWC | 71 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    This is a nice one, you have smoke & MSV2 shooting to advance up the table, and smoke to help get him into cc when you get there. I heard from the Aristeia folks that he likes smoke. In that haris, seems like masquerading as an hmg or paramedic dakini would make sense, or anything plausible really - Celestial Guard FO or hacker, Adil, Adil Crane Rank all work.

    I heard someone say provoking pitcher coverage is a good idea, which anything hackable will do as a decoy. If your opponent expends their pitcher ammo trying to block an attack by a dakini hmg that isn't coming, it could save an HI elsewhere on the board.

    There is the issue that a real Dakini hmg is cheaper and probably a bigger help to your list than Taowu... but it's tough being a monofilament swinging hipster gangster.
     
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  9. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Depends on the opponent. If you’re playing someone with Infiltrators and/or a get-the-Lt mission, set TaoWu up as an Lt choice like a Crane, or a solo Hsien.

    If you’re playing Sun Tzu, first slap yourself, then consider Tao Wu at least.

    If you’re playing GML against anopponent with decent hacking and a Kanren and/or a Ninja are your hackers, try disguising him as a CG hacker. Watch then try to fry him with a KHD and laugh.

    Less of a bait tactic but you could also deploy him as a CG spitfire watching your rear lines or flanks, to deter entry there if Margot/Carlotta/etc are expected.

    He’ll be most useful to complicate alpha strikes. Not bad investment against hard alpha players or armies.
     
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  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The thing I don't like about the CI is that once the opponent knows you are using it, he knows something is TW. So the surprise of holomask is now mitigated for them a bit. They don't know exactly what his is but it knows it's there. If he's in a CG team, you might as well make it mixed since he doesn't count as a CG. And if you go second, the skill is a waste anyway.
     
    #190 Space Ranger, Apr 25, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
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  11. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Well, if you use counterintelligence you're going first. If you're going second he's still a good DZ protecting surprise or counter-puncher while you're eating an alpha strike. If you're attacking with him, it's not so important that he's a surprise - and you still might get lucky and wrong foot your opponent on deployment.

    Eg/ if they null deploy and rely on repeaters to protect them against a Deva/Dakini hmg link pushing up a flank to discourage you might be able to walk up with non-hackable Taowu, dump smoke on them and cc them. Lots of "maybe" and "might" in this for a dastardly master plan, but there we go.
     
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  12. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The biggest problem with Taowu is that he was given the wrong link options. He'd be a lot easier to fit into lists if he could join a Zhian link as well, or was just a regular wildcard. The Deva MSV2/CG Monitor/Taowu link is really his only easy access to a list. The fact that there's context where he's even usable at all was a huge win for him after the fireteam rework, but he just wants a little bit more to really start shining.
     
  13. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Really, he wants to be in the Zhian link masquerading as Sforza. Then Sforza could be in there masquerading as Taowu.
     
  14. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I recently ran into a little bit of a list building problem with Taowu, where I realized how difficult it is to actually effectively hide a Lt with him (which should kind of be what he's good at). Because Lt WIP is now open information (a very poor change going into N4, they really need to reverse that awful decision already), ISS' very obvious WIP tiers for its Lt troopers makes him an equally obvious tell.

    Being able to fake a Adil Lt would be a very nice option, since Adil is actually a really good Lt now that ISS has more varied fireteam options to fit him into and the Pheasant is now worth actually fitting in to lists without feeling like a handicap. Problem being that the only option to fake it out with would be the Zhanying Lt... who isn't great.

    Ultimately, ISS really has two main Lt options: Adil and the Hsien. The rest are taxes that function as relatively easy assassination targets (even the former two are vulnerable to some of the more frustrating threats in N4's heavily alpha-focused meta). Taowu would actually be pretty useful at working out some mindgames to cover that up... if it weren't spelled out who your Lt was from the get-go.
     
  15. SpectralOwl

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    Taking a few Celestial Guard for a shell game doesn't seem too bad, considering the competition. A couple Haris teams with Dakini SWC guns could provide useful places for LTs to link without being in danger, and without giving Taowu away. Might even be worth faking a Core Crane during deployment if you're playing Decapitation where you have to give away your LT after deployment, if only sodding Adil weren't just a better Crane... at least some opponents might not have that fact memorised.
     
  16. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I think a Celestial Guard is a viable cheap lieutenant, as it can pad out a Dakini HMG haris and stay in the backfield pretty safely.

    Adil with Chain of Command and the Pheasant perform useful roles now, and it's still possible to make an ISS deployment zone a hostile nest of Kuang Shi templates. Taowu can masquerade as Adil CoC, and just having that on the table can dissuade opponents from pouring orders into a decapitation attempt.

    I hadn't thought of running Crane Adil as lt, but now you point it out it's not a bad choice. Veteran means he doesn't have to be worried about being isolated and he has some fun toys. I've tended to overlook him in favor of CoC Adil, as I think sensor, good cc and CoC with NWI is a compelling toolkit package on a cheaper profile, and it then frees you up to take whatever you feel like as LT.
     
  17. Miraclebutt

    Miraclebutt Well-Known Member

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    My recent couple games have been making use of a mixed CG core with Dakinis carrying the heavy weapons, and Tao Wu fits into it very comfortably:


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    TÁOWÙ (Counterintelligence) Nanopulser(+2B), Flash Pulse(+1B) / Viral Pistol(+1B), Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    DAKINI MULTI Sniper Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 20)
    DAKINI Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 21)

    3 SWC | 92 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
    I like to have an EVO nearby for the Dakinis as well, very worth the slot and points. If you're not interested in or have no use for Tao Wu, a Deva hacker is only marginally more expensive and keeps the link safe in other ways.

    If I'm not taking a Sophotect, the Dakini sniper is usually a Paramedic and I make up the ARO presence in other ways, like with Lunah or with a MadTrap minelayer. I like having Sophie for Classifieds and redundancy though, the Dakinis are so effective that keeping them active all game is worth the order expense. It ends up being a sub-100 point Core, so with the Kuang Shi and EVO you're at 11 slots and about 140 points. That's a lot of points and not much space left, so it's perfect for a Su Jian list with heavy midfield support.


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    TÁOWÙ (Counterintelligence) Nanopulser(+2B), Flash Pulse(+1B) / Viral Pistol(+1B), Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
    DAKINI MULTI Sniper Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 20)
    DAKINI Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 21)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    SÙ-JIÀN Spitfire, Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 54)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    PANGGULING (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)
    SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
    YUDBOT PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    KǍNRÈN (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Chain-colt ( ) / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    KǍNRÈN (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    NINJA (Hacker, Hacking Device) Submachine Gun ( ) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0.5 | 35)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Did it ever get clarified whether it was legal to use the Kuang Shi CG as a fireteam member for the Celestial Guard fireteam? Because the Monitor you buy under the Celestial Guard entry isn't legal to count towards a monitor for the Kuang Shi according to Army and the only logical reason to have two sets of Kuang Shi monitors in army is because they aren't allowed to mix fireteams.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's got the same name and name is the only thing we've got to go on. Afaik, Koni is at least working on fixing this, but didn't say what was correct or not - but if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and is called a duck, then I don't see why we shouldn't treat it like a Celestial Guard in the meanwhile.
     
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  20. SpectralOwl

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    Probably something to do with needing a different database entry to support the different name and convenient placement of the Monitor profile with the Kuang Shi themselves. Seems like a technical issue rather than a design one, it's likely safe to treat Monitors as just another CG.
     
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