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Isnt it too much?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Angry Clown, Mar 5, 2022.

  1. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    When an opponent is playing vanilla CA at a big event, it's safe to assume there's a good chance that's the list you'll be facing. Set up traps and hope they fall for it is your best option really.
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    One of the reasons I've taken to running USARF lists where everything infiltrates or FDs except the fireteam. Solves this problem pretty well.
     
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  3. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Yeah, Infiltration FD etc. does mitigate a host of evils in deployment. It leaves one vulnerable to alphas in a different way though, closer to that hit-retreat limit for a rambo-ing alpha opponent.

    The game needs more strategic use of Command Tokens to mitigate alphas, damnit. Being able to put two tokens towards starting units in Supp Fire (or putting delpoyables out) would be damned useful. It would make the game's one major falling-down point far less of an issue. I have faith in CB in general, but such a tweak is sorely needed.
     
    #523 Savnock, Jun 21, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2022
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    imagine being a person who says this, while simultaneously being the person who claims Onyx isn’t a decent army nor an army that has good options for hacking.

    also imagine being the same person who cannot deal with a Kamau sniper, despite playing an Ariadna sectorial that is plastered with options that can reliably deal with such threat, yet despite being shown how to deal with said threath, the person insist on having a shootout approach.

    Then again such a person might be playing the game in a different meta.
     
    #524 Zewrath, Jun 21, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2022
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Why would those be related? The Avatar can't be run in OCF and the power level between OCF and Vanilla CA is pretty vast.

    What in USARF "reliably" deals with a fully linked Kamau? UKR in a core fireteam within 24"? I'm pretty sure that's it.

    You're speaking a bunch of nonsense as near as I can tell.
     
  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    The player who consistently lands on the lower half of even small tournaments cannot figure out how to deal with a Kamau, insists on using the link team vs link team shoot out approach, talks about "nonsense".
    Amusing. :joy:

    Anways, please drop this stupid gaslighting charade a lot of people has picked up on that goes something like "tHe AvAtAr iS aCkShUaLlY oVeRaTeD".

    You, and many other, fail to view the CA from a holostic perspective.
    The Avatar is not cancer because it exist in of itself. The Avatar is cancer because it exists within CA that has access to a myriad of other incredibly insufferable units.

    What you fail to adress (or understand I'm not sure) is that you bring two lists to a tournament (shocking, I know), so any CA player with actual functioning brain cells will make the "classic" Avatar list and the other list will be tailored specifically to those armies that can reliably deal with an Avatar.
    Since CA is spoiled for choice when it comes to obnoxious units, what usually happens with a good CA player with experience with different armies will easily assess what the opponent will be bringing and chose between either an obnoxious strong list to deal with "hard" matchups or roflstomp with the Avatar list against armies you know wont be able to reliably deal with it.
    In practice, this translates into an army that is stupidly strong with options to switch lists to counter any weaknesses it might have.
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I noticed you evaded the question. Cool, good to know you're just performing, you don't actually know what you're talking about.

    I'm not. The Avatar is dangerous when piloted by a skilled player and unworrying when piloted by an unskilled player. This doesn't strike me as a problem. Same with Bearpodes.

    And what do you do if both lists can't cover both missions? List chicken doesn't work the same way in Infinity when you can't see your opponent's army beforehand.
     
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Camo. Literally active camo counters vast swathes of Varuna and the Kamau link.
    You have been informed of this multiple times by multiple people, yet you chose to ignore it.


    There are two principles of making infinity lists:

    1) Make two lists where A can cover one set of missions and B the other.

    2) Make two lists that can cover all missions, even within slight margins and chose A or B depending on matchups

    Some armies struggle with the second build philosophy (like Shasvastii for example) and some outlier missions can screw it over as well (Biotechvore for example) but general speaking, CA is absolutely capable of building within the parameters of the second build philosophy.
    In fact, this is also why (most) Vanilla Armies are so strong, because they are versatile in options and can build after the second build philosophy, which is (often) stronger, as it is tailored towards the matchup while still being able to do the mission (even if some are within a slight margin).

    Yes, there are exceptions, yes there are outlying circumstances yada yada.
     
  9. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    For reference I took the Avatar in both lists (as a meme), and won Novacore (Newcastle Australia, 70 odd players). The tables were relatively dense, not like the one someone posted a picture of (actually Melbourne tables have a reputation for being relatively dense, and there were 12 of them at Novacore). CA have great tools for digging things out in dense terrain too (Taighas, Gakis, Noukias) that pair well with the Avatar.

    My point is not that but just that complaining as much as this thread has about Nomads seems a bit much in comparison. Vanilla Nomads and Vanilla CA seem like maybe they are two of the strongest picks right now, but I think CA is prob stronger, and there are a lot of strong things in the game.
     
  10. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations on the big win! I heard that top 5 of Novacore was CA and CA Sectorials. We never get threads complaining how OP CA is, even though they have been strong since forever. I think people in general accept CA being so strong because it fits the fluff.
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You said "reliably." It's dicey to infiltrate up the board, and damn straight you're going to have to make some coin-flip dice rolls to get to the rest of the fireteam to soften up the Kamau.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think people acknowledge that vanilla CA is very strong. As far as the sectorial go, I don't think it's as powerful of an option - some good players did well with them at Novacore, but it doesn't seem to be consistent.
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    No it's not.

    Active Camo is not something Varuna can deal with.

    They have no Minelayers (except for that one Croc-Men profile) to molest your skirmishers advance.
    Their Helot have to drop their marker state in order to attempt a discover on a low WIP, which ruins the point of the unit.
    Their Zulu Cobra are prone thus cannot discover nor can they Jam against marker.

    Flanking a Fusilier with a B3 weapon + Mimitism is almost a risk-free roll and that was the old link.
    I did this for the entirety of N3 and retained a near 100% WR against that army, using everything from Zhencha, Guilang, Zero's, Dart, Nagas and the occasional Tiger (okay, not camo but still).
    Everyone and their dog was so focussed on that Kamau link that I was baffled by the fact that no one was talking about how easy that army crumbles to camo.

    Of course, none of this applies if you play on a table where a Kamau can literally see +70% of your table, at which point your problem is a shitty table and nothing else.

    Anyways, I'm off.
     
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  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think it was just Vanilla and SEF that placed top 10 for Novacore in terms of CA. I don't recall anyone mentioning Onyx or MAF up there.
     
  15. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I think the biggest issue is how people build tournaments. For some reason TOs love to stretch listbuilding by putting missions with completely different requirements.

    But some factions (like CA with the Avatar) have absolutely no issue taking the same list to all 20 missions, an Avatar list has like 1-2 flex slot. These kinds of list don't benefit a whole lot from matchup based or mission-based tweaks.

    On the other hand, you have factions that need to tailor their lists for the mission AND the matchup to be viable, and those factions usually have a much higher amount of flex slots. These kinds of list benefit a massive amount from match-up based or mission-based tweaks.

    I think the powerlevel of the factions that need to tailor their list, if they have the appropriate list, is fairly comparable to the top tier contenders at the moment (which coincidentally are mostly all single-list viable).

    If you take a set of mission where the second group of factions can afford to bring match-up or table oriented list, you end up with much more interesting and much closer matchups imo.
     
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  16. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Novacore 2 Top Ten: (From the Loss of Lieutenant Podcast)
    1. Vanilla CA
    2. Vanilla CA
    3. Shas
    4. Morats
    5. Vanilla Nomads
    6. OSS
    7. Military Orders
    8. Shas
    9. Vanilla Haqqislam
    10. Spiral Core
    5 CAs in top 10. Note, the mission line-up from Novacore was difficult (Countermeasures, Supplies, Supremacy, Rescue, Comm Center (ITS X)), which probably promoted skew.
     
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  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I do not think tournament performance should be used as an indicator to judge somebodies ideas and understanding of the game, it also leads to discussion that can be argumentative.
     
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  18. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    But it is the best source of data for what factions are performing and which aren't. Comp play is where balance changes should originate.
     
  19. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I've said it earlier in the thread and I'll say again: High Level performance play should not dictate the flow of the game.

    As much as I respect the High Level players and think they're very important for game health, they're not the only ones playing, and in fact represent a minority, especially in a game that is already a Niche game like Infinity.

    An objective-driven, competitive player will find issues that might fly over the head of a more casual player. But here's the catch: they're both players. When you chase the competitive mindset and make the game exclusively for the competitive players, you risk alienating a large percentage of your playerbase who doesn't have the same drive, time or interest in competitive play.

    I do agree that vanilla CA is one of the strongest if not the strongest faction right now. But I feel that is 'despite' CB's efforts, not because of it. A lot of vanilla CA units, especially the aspects, still feel stuck on ancient N2 design philosophies (and yes, I'm still salty about vanguards costing 14 points), and the only reason CA dominates is because it's got such a grossly large toolbox, combined with some really optimized models and some busted choices all to make it a powerful army.

    However, and I'm talking out of my ass here, going on pure perception, no one is going to convince me CB spent as many man-hours designing CA as they spent designing Nomads. I do get the feeling that recently the gap is smaller (Shasvastii and Morats are actually well-designed) but I'll wager there's still a gap.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is fair to say that a more casual player will not be able to fathom the tactical depth that a highly competitive player will possibly take issues with. There are a lot of reasons that might gatekeep a player from being a top player, but I don't think their intellectual capacity for "getting" what is strong play and what isn't is necessarily it.
    The reasons might range from their persistent attention to detail, to their sense of what is fair or fun, to personal limitations such as what miniatures you've got on hand, to their ability to remember the rule set's often inconsistent interactions or rules by omission that defies quick look ups. Often a game can be decided based on who can make the strongest argument for how to deal with a situation that's not easily looked up.

    The point is, the divide between a "pro" player and a "casual" player is artificial. Not only because the game doesn't have a pro scene, but I think it's more about how much you care about some of the imbalances.
    I can understand that it is annoying when there's a "patch" too often that forces you to adapt now ideas and if you don't play often this can seem like every other game, but it's kind of self-defeating to arrive at a conclusion in years that it takes more prolific players months to arrive at. It's most likely going to be the same conclusion.

    I believe there was an interview back in the days where CB basically said they put all the ideas that were deemed too good for the human factions in CA. I don't think there's any "despite CB's efforts" when it comes to CA's strength.
     
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