A big part of the problem is the nerf to KHDs means there's not enough risk for skeeting repeaters everywhere. Even Interventors should have to worry about them; currently, that's not the case.
Have U-turn apply ECM (Guided -X) to models within the EVO's hacking area. Also bring back strategic use to throw up EVO programs
Currently back at N2 missile spam before the introduction of the KHD, we currently have players talking about quitting due to being unable to stop them selves from just getting carpet bombed off the table if they don't go first.
I mean I think that CB should wait until irl tournaments resume to make changes, but I have a feeling that the N3 hacking ecosystem was actually not that bad in retrospect.
It really wasn't, as long as Redrum wasn't in the picture. It's an assertion I made then and stand by now. N3 Hacking was a fairly well balanced tool box with a few fringe issues and one massive one. N4 absolutely gutted and royally unbalanced it.
If they had removed KHD's ability to go through firewalls and kept everything else the same, I wonder how it would have turned out.
It goes a bit deeper than this. The biggest problem is the hacking ecosystem is utterly fucked. The supportive hacking device delivering the buff/debuff spotlight effect is also tends to be the apex predator with big BTS/WIP scores and the two programs that scares the shit out of most players who are bringing expensive models with Oblivion and Total Control. KHDs with only Trinity at their disposal and inability to get past firewalls no longer pose a reasonable ARO piece to scare these models anymore, and that's problematic. What happens if you build a list that doesn't present a reasonable ARO deterrent to your opponent's gunfighters? They run over to your side of the table and stomp your shit in. It's more or less the same currently for N4 hacking with the disparity of have and have nots in factions. Teslarod's example of it being somewhat order intensive to scalpel out models is accurate, but it overlooks the fact that you are scalpeling these models out for little to no risk in return. You are bypassing and invalidating defensive deployment, chaffe, ARO pieces etc. If it costs me 10 orders, 66% of my first turn to look at a say a WinterFor army and go "Wow that's a pretty cool looking fireteam with lots of cool expensive guys in it. So anyway, fuck your Karhu, fuck your KoJ, fuck your ORC, they're all being assploded right now." There are many missions where I could spend 15 orders on delivering that damage alone with that being a great first turn given I just effectively removed basically anything my opponent had that was particularly dangerous and I can safely take the game over the next 2 turns. Even if he still has 10+ orders left for his turn odds are he's now down to working with shotguns and combi rifles to try and tackle my army that has risked 0 casualties and is pristine condition, is more or less in a safe position, and he still has to do something about the repeater network that is in play. Good fucking luck getting past a BS19 Grenzer or core linked MSR Haidao or some shit like that. Again I hear you about the whole maybe it's just Guided weapons thing not hackers in general, but I would point out that even if these pieces were only isolated and not assploded needing to start every turn by trying to unfuck some of these units is still a major issue and order drain of itself. There are several LT profiles that are more or less unplayable due to high risk factors at the moment because they're such and easy isolation target, and the mid range TAGs are very much in their N3 state of "huge fuckin' liability" because for many factions (especially Vanilla that can't start firewalls up on them) you can't pose any realistically effective ARO defense for them to prevent possession. I agree that hacking should be universally useful over it being hit and miss in N3, but there's two things we need to take into account for the purposes of game balance if you can't ignore hacking anymore: If hacking is universally good, no faction should be unable to compete in a hacking fight. We can't have shit like Ariadna being unable to hack anymore. It's both a major imbalance in terms of power and it's also very un-engaging as a game mechanic for both parties involved if someone can't actually fight back. Every faction needs to be able to pose lethal hacking threats. If hacking cannot be functionally ignored anymore then it needs to be treated the same as bullets, there needs to be some kind of ARO effect/unit archetypes in the hacking eco stystem. Players need the options open to slow a cyber incursion down and either stop it or deflect it onto less valuable units to shield their important ones and give them a chance to enter play. I'd also like to make mention that simply taking hackers isn't an effective ARO defense right now either. I have straight up watched Druze suicide a Hunzakut to get a repeater down, then with the Firewall bonus fucked up not one but two Aleph hackers deployed to defend a Marut before fucking up the Marut as well. Top of turn 1 and Druze still has orders to spare and his opponent is already down half his army in points and his biggest gun at the cost of a Hunzakut, and the Aleph player was understandbly demoralised by the fact that realistically, there was no real option he had with which provide an effective ARO against his opponent and his game was very much dictated by some Reset rolls which regardless of statistical effectiveness for either player involved felt like dogshit to be at the mercy of as the reactive player. This kind of shit going down is not uncommon for my meta, I straight up advocate that at least one list for a tournament must be prepped to drop into a hacking opponent, and that can be a very hard ask for some factions that simply don't have options to build an effective counter and still make a mission effective list.
I think the answer was actually the reverse: keep the ability to exploit Repeaters but drop the DAM output as they did.
This is why we need effective defensive (read killer) hackers that can and do pose a threat to this kind of game play such that it becomes an actual risk to try and pull this shit.
The problem is both. The issue we have with Trinity now is not that it can't win F2F rolls, it straight up wins more F2F than any other basic program. The problem is it doesn't pose enough of a threat to end a major threat. This makes it bad at both attacking apex predator hackers, and also running ARO duties. In regards to ARO, it can defend itself statistically by winning a F2F roll, but it can't defend anyone else effectively and you kind of wanted it to be a line of defense for your 80-100pts of TAG/HI dudes. I didn't take the Ninja to defend her own 29pt idiot skintight wetsuit ass, I brought her to stop my Su Jian from getting fucked up and right now she does a pretty mediocre to downright terrible job at that. Now I'm not saying that the KHD or Trinity specifically needs to be able to threaten Apex predators or be the hacking version of a TR bot, but there sure as fuck needs to be some kind of program or hacker generally available or we're going to continue to see very skewed lists being forced into the meta to cope with shit.
Agreed! It's not Spotlight that is the problem, it is Guided. Regardless what some people say, Killer Hackers aren't in a bad place for the low amount of points and the next to no opportunity cost spent on them and given how Repeaters work it's basically impossible to balance passive hackers. I'd rather see adjustments be made to how deployable repeaters work, particularly those deployed by Pitchers and Pandas, since the problem isn't so much hacking but how effective a hacking area is. Either that or start having Deactivator shoot through walls at B2.
That's my point: a Trinity that ignores Firewalls is effective DAM17 vs a target that can't kill it back. Yes that's only a 25% chance per hit to wound an Interventor but that's not actually awful vs a 1W threat when you don't need to get across the board to threaten enemy Hackers. What you want to punish is a player indiscriminately spamming Repeaters not a player who's cautiously running a Hacker Lt. Or worse making a KHD through a friendly Repeater a way to trivially assassinate Hacker Lts like it was in late N3. The issue with N3 KHDs is that they had natively high DAM and ignored Repeaters: this made running Hackers extremely risky. // Making Deactivator ZOC is extremely interesting. I'd probably go with flat WIP or WIP+3 rather than B2. That will mean that a WIP13 Engineer has an 80% chance of removing a Deployable rather than 87.27% but a WIP12 Engineer has a 75% chance vs a 84%. So WIP+3 emphasises the benefits of paying more for WIP a lot more than B2 does. I kinda do agree that - Nomads excepted - few factions are likely to have Deactivators in the right places so an 80% median efficiency is warranted given the likely requirement to reposition first. This also has the advantages of forcing inefficiencies in TAG employment and emphasises targetable vulnerabilities in the support elements of TAG lists. Finally, it's available to all factions.
I would call a 30ish percent chance in active to put a wound through on the typical hackers you see in lists at the moment (BTS 6 behind a firewall and more than likely in a fireteam) a bad place.
As a footnote while on the subject; I am of the opinion that Oblivion is a bit too strong in terms of DAM and Carbonite is a bit too weak.
That's ignoring the chance to get bricked by the Interventor first and achieve nothing. Wasting 3 orders wiffing your KHD attacks because rolling on unreliable shit odds and then getting bricked is a good way to throw a game.
Okay, so you're trying to hack your opponent through one of their Repeaters, I recognise that problem; so there's a problem with Guided and Spotlight because Repeaters are too easy to stick down in the enemy's side of the table with particularly Pitchers there's a problem with Oblivion versus hackable targets because Repeaters are too easy to stick down in the enemy's side of the table with particularly Pitchers there's a problem with Killer Hacking Devices as a counter-measure to Hacking because Repeaters are too easy to stick down in the enemy's side of the table with particularly Pitchers What if we fixed the common problem here, because Killer Hacking Devices have reasonably good chances when "cover" isn't one-sided - and more importantly, Hacking Devices have reasonable chances in the active turn when "cover" isn't one-sided. Possible solutions: remove Firewall from deployable repeaters allow ARO versus deployable repeaters when used move Pitchers to thrown range bands, and remove speculative fire improve Deactivator: 2 burst and No LOF label. have Repeaters be exclusive access; max 1 friendly hacker at a time I do not think going back to N3 where KHDs put hacking on lock down by killing anything with a device that activates by passively crowding in an enemy Repeater.
No, it's deliberately placing an average KHD as too week to reliably threaten Apex predators. And we're already seeing skewed lists being forced into the meta to cope with shit: RP TAGs force skew responses right now.
Then you're suggesting blowing orders on a low IQ move and running the high risk of getting bricked for 0 effect instead, it's not better really. Look just because two buildings are on fire doesn't mean we decide to extinguish one and let the other one burn to the ground. The idea is we fix all the problems. Apex hackers need to be reigned in as well one way or another.
