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Is the name "Kempeitai" insensitive?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic English' started by Knauf, Mar 7, 2018.

  1. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this interesting input. How do Koreans feel about the Japanese still using that Rising Sun symbol?
     
  2. Rizzy

    Rizzy Armchair Strategos L3

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    I've heard it's somewhat similar in parts of the Baltic states with the hammer and sickle emblem of the Soviet Union.
     
  3. rooki1

    rooki1 Korean Baccara Bot
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    That's simple. Imagine that the German army still uses the swastika. Koreans consider Japanese refuse to remember what they did in the past.
     
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  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Correct, Fasces is not only not associated with fascism, but for most of the people it is an obscure unknown symbol.
     
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  5. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    And as with Fascis, just imagine a Spanish, French, Greek, or Albanian Tourist coming in Italy, and still remember fondly a cherished old Aunt, Old Uncle or Grandfather recounting them the problems that ITALIAN Soldiers (and not Nazi Germans) have done when invading their Country in WW2 (in the case of Spain during their Civil War, that was technically WON by the Fascist "Caudillo" Francisco Franco !!).

    The distinction between poor, conscripted Italian Farm Boys that did not know how to properly fire a Gun and hardcore Party Fascist that were YET "Nazi Ideologists" when Adolph Hitler failed its admission to the Austrian Art College was not so clear at the time. . .

    There were not so crisp distinction as if from the Assault Frontline Division of the Schultz-Staffen and the conscripted Wermacht Grunts; even the "Black Uniform with Skulls" of the "Arditi" Bunker-Busters and the fearless "Folgore" Paratroopers Brigade not ALWAYS had a "Nazi Heart" hidden under it, but often simply an Italian Soldier that wanted to excel. . .!!

    And imagine what would think these hypothethical Tourist will feel when arriving in Rome and see both the Ancient Classical Rome monuments AND the surviving "Fascist Ventennial" Buildings still decorated with "Fascii Lictoris" and Imperial Eagles. . .!!
     
  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    As much as I like this sentiment, this is actually a common misconception which, ironically, is the very first step towards repeating the same mistakes.

    What people such watch out for is the people who claim to fight for a greater good or social justice (and I'm not talking about "social justice" in the way it has become a meme over the internet). Usually the evil is almost always done in the name of a perceived justice or greater good. It's actually totally unrealistic the way many people think "evil" political movements can easily be identified, because in our mind and many fictional stories, the evildoers are typically Emperor Palpatine caricatures of a cackling maniac. This sort of mentality is, in it's extreme form, is what have lead to movements like 'Antifa', where you justify violence and attrocities in order to proactively "prevent" the "facists" from "gaining power".

    Evil actions from giant political parties are often disguised as a big bureaucratic machine, in which people lose themselves and their individual agency and thus a big part of their consciousness is at ease. Which is why ideologies that's based on collectivism to this date have killed more people than anything in the history of mankind since the Black Plague.
    There's a fantastic book about this subject called 'Eichmann in Jerusalem - The Banality of Evil' by Hannah Arendt, where she writes about the worst desktop murderer in the history of mankind, tasked with executing the 'Endlösung'; Adolf Eichmann. She wrote about how he was a totally normal bloke, with no sociopathic behaviours, displayed no madness, showed no sign of guilt but neither any signs of pride in his former job. He wasn't anything out of the ordinary, he was boring even, he just followed and he never broke the law, not even in the foreign country he located to. He disguised his atrocious orders with innocent bureaucratic phrases in an attempt to remove the gravitas from the consequences of his orders. Hannah Arendt compared this behaviour to the biblical story about Pontius Pilatus, who washed his hands in water in an attempt to acquit himself from the blood spilled by Jesus Christ, after he sentenced him to death.

    Hannah Arrend's assessment on how even normal humans could easily be monsters, seems to be in line with the (in)famous findings of the Standford Prison Experiment. Which could help explain why the Kempeitai or the likes of the Securitate, had so many people among them, willingly commiting the atrocities that forever carved their name into history (of course this isn't used to excuse anything, rather this an important lesson on never give up your individual agency in the name of the supposed greater good, because in the end you're still held accountable for your own actions).
     
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  7. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I was pretty shocked when I visited the museum the Japanese have about WWII. No words of regret or remorse, the Japanese were sometimes even painted as the victims. The atrocities committed by Japanese forces were not described as such, and often just called "Incidents", like the "Chinese incident", for example. Pretty disturbing. Unimaginable in Germany.
     
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  8. Rizzy

    Rizzy Armchair Strategos L3

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    Can also recommend this book. Quite terrifying.
     
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  9. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    Italy has a law that punishes the “apologia del fascismo” (apology of fascism) and just some months ago there was another law to expand the meaning of “apologia” so that there should be more control on this matter.

    Many monuments were “cleaned” after the war. Many bridges and monuments had the “fascio littorio” and all symbol of the dux removed, many other were destroyed by allied bombs and by the resistance.

    But erasing everything doesn’t solve the problem.

    If Italy removes any past monument built in 1920–1945 does that means we don’t have done what we have done?

    No, history is already written. Italy tainted themselves with many athrocities, from the use of Mustard gas in Abissinia ( Actual Ethiopia), to the deporting of Jew Italian families to concentration camps. And those fact are already happened and they are already written into the pages of history.

    Does it remove the fascist ideal from the world?

    No, you’ll always find people who think that some ideals are good, even in the face of all the bad things.

    Do you want to know what’s the best thing to avoid the repetition of the past mistakes? Remembering them all.

    As a kid learn to never play with fire, by remembering when he placed his hand on the flames, Every Italian must remember that we tried Fascism, and suffered because of it. So remember, remembers the victims, remember the suffering, remember what caused Fascism. So that nobody sane of mind can ever be happy of trying it again.


    Italy, as many other countries, had its share of dark moments in it’s history.

    that’s why we need to keep everything in good condition, not to support a fascist past, but to avoid a fascist future.

    If our grandchildren have the same monuments, the same memories, as we have now, the dark time of fascism would never be forgotten (and hopefully, it would never happen again)

    Italy is scattered with many many many many writings, symbols that recall the Fascism.
    take for example this:
    [​IMG]
    ("Dux" the title used by Mussolini on a Monte Giano)

    This wood is near Rome, and while it's been subject to "strange" fires from time to time, the autorities keep on planting back the trees, to the memory of the victims of Fascism, so that dark moment in history won't be forgotten.



    Besides, many monuments that can be identified as “fascist” have the only fault of being built during that time.

    Most monuments built during that time have a very distinctive look. But it’s not due to the fascist regime. It was that time architectural fashion (called Movimento razionalista)


    [​IMG]
    (this is the "Casa del fascio" (house of the Fascism) made by architect Giuseppe Terragni in Como. Now used as an Department by the "Guardia di finanza")

    [​IMG]
    (the writing says: “a country of poets, artists, heroes, saints, thinkers, scientists, navigators, travellers”)

    [​IMG]
    (this monuments celebrates the victory of WWI and was built in 1926)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (il passetto, monument to fallen soldier during WWI in Ancona)

    [​IMG]
    (The rotonda sul mare in Senigallia)

    [​IMG]
    (this is an ordinary post office in Palermo)

    [​IMG]
    (this is the Court in Milan)
     
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  10. stevenart74

    stevenart74 Well-Known Member

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    @Darkvortex87. . .

    I daresay imagine You are Italian, as I are. . .

    I'm extremely aware of the Past of Fascism and Nazi Occupation in Italy; My own Mother suffered from problems during the WW2 as Her rural country home was occupied by an "Alpenjages + Wermacht" detachement of Light Mountain Artillery that put an Anti-Partisan "Jager Gruppe" into Her very FRONT PORCH (where was parked a nice couple of FLAK cannons) !!!

    She was employed by Local Partisan to try to spy on the Nazi / Fascists Troops stationed there (with nothing useful for them, as She and Her little brother were too young children to pilfer something useful for the "Italian Red Army" Partisans of the Local Mountains !!) but they felt INTIMATELY the weight of the Occupation when a drunken Wermacht Soldier entered their apartment, screaming that "He Wanted To Know Where They Had Hidden Food And Wine !!". . .

    She recalled that that Soldier manhandled Her Mother (my Grandmother) and that this could have ended VERY BADLY if the commanding Wermacht Oberst, annoyed by the noise would have not come investigating, slapped VERY HARD the Drunkard Bully and tore its "Campaign Medals" and "Serjant Rank Stripes" ON THE SPOT for "Behaviour Unfit to Duty !!". . .

    Last they heard of the Drunkard He was nicely sent to the Frontline of Cassino Battle, where is hoped was killed by Allied Carpet-Bombing. . .

    . . . . .

    From My Father's side instead, My Paternal Grandfather was a TRUE BELIEVER in Fascism, that sucked up the stupid ideology of Benito Mussolini all whole and lived in the "Ventennio" with a perfect, nice "Rural Fascist Family" and I still have B.W. Photos of My Father dressed in the "Balilla" Little Fascists School Uniform. . .

    Then the War came and when nearby people where deported for mounted, trumped-up charges then My Grandfather "Opened His Eyes" and understood how deep the Lies of "Il Duce" were; not that it helped that "Italian Red Army" Partisans tried to summarily execute Him for "Collaboration" before a couple of escaped Italian Jews and a local "White Army Partisan" Officer testimonied that My Grand-Dad has helped "True Italians" to escape the dragnets of the Gestapo / O.V.R.A. (Italian sub-par copy of the German Political Police). . .

    . . . . .

    I made My Compulsory Military Service in the Carabinieri Riot Police Squad, and We happily, impartially night-sticked and put in the Prison Vans either "Red Extremists" that spat upon us while calling us "Neo Fascist Police" and Naziskins that called us "Traitors of the White Aryan Italy and Negro-Lovers". . .

    I also traveled some few years ago with an Ex-Girlfriend to the TOMB Shrine of Benito, in the Cemetery of San Cassiano, Predappio (Rimini), where still stood guard a couple of "Volunteers" with Black Pseudo-Uniforms, and it made a very "Uncanny Valley" vibe. . .

    . . . . .

    I'm also currently involved in the growing Local Support for the L.G.B.T. Rights and Pride in Italy (myself I'm an Open Bisexual, with a couple of acquired relatives that are a happily married Lesbian Women). . .

    So I believe that I'm enough acquainted with ALL of the Heavy Burden of the Fascist Past of Italy. . . . .!!!
     
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  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Was this the museum at Yasukuni?

    Yeah, that shrine is a bit... "special"

    Very pretty (especially when the sakura are in bloom), but very firmly "The Soldiers of the Emperor can do no wrong."



    That is a hideously fugly building.

    IMO, it should be destroyed and replaced with something more attractive, perhaps something in a classical Roman style? Heck, even glass mirrors would be an improvement!
     
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  12. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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  13. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    as you can see from the other examples, that specific architectural movement is characterized by straight lines, white marble surfaces and the lack of any ornament.
    Without going into much detail, it was a movement that existed also in other european state and that evolved into the actual "modernist" movement.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism_(architecture)
     
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  14. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    As a slight tangent, i'm interested to know at what point you guys think the following scenario become offensive at:

    1) Games company releases minis historical war game based on WW2.
    2) Games company includes Nazi Germany as playable faction.
    3) Nazi Germany units go beyond technical names like 'Panzer II' regiment and start using real regiment names that were involved in real skirmishes
    4) Swastika water-transfers are bundled with said tanks to enable players to easily mark their tanks with appropriate historical symbology.
    5) Player turning up to a tournament with their Nazi German force dressed in WW2 German soldier costume.
    6) Player turning up to a tournament in an SS uniform "cosplay".
    7) Player turning up to a tournament with Nazi German forces and staying 'in character' with a faux german accent for the duration of the tournament.

    And for the record I don't buy that it's bad to feel uncomfortable about subject matter for which you aren't the historically subjugated race, more and more recently as a white male englishman i've been turned off to boardgames that heavily feature colonialism if it hasn't been handled properly. White washing and smoothing over the ugliness of history with family friendly theming and selective interpretation is something I find particularly insidious. I'll still play games that feature historical colonialism so long as they don't portray it as a 'fun for all the family' romp to found new lands.
     
    #374 Superfluid, Mar 23, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  15. Rizzy

    Rizzy Armchair Strategos L3

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    From #4 upwards you'd get problems with the law in Germany, because symbols of the third Reich are only allowed "in context". You could probably argue that war games fall in the art category since video games are pretty much on the way to be considered art legally, but which company wants to be known as "the company that went to court to have swastikas in their game"?

    For my personal stance I'd have to know if it was "based on WW2" in the way Dust is or Flames of War is? Assuming you meant the latter, I'd go to about 2.5 (:p) I would make up my own regiment, but style it after a historical one. No SS units, though. I'd do the same if I were to play the Red Army.
    If I were to visit a tournament somewhere not in Germany (see above) I'd have no problems playing someone going up to #5. #6 would be where the queasy feelings start for me and I may refuse to play the guy.
    #7 is a bit weird, because I would totally affect a German accent (usually I get mistaken as a Scandinavian, but I can ramp up zee voice achtung very vell!) but think along the lines of Hogan's Heroes or Chaplin in The Great Dictator.

    For the record, I never played a historical war game apart from TANKS!!! I considered getting into Flames of War with the French 2nd Armour Division a long time ago and with a British Independent Armoured Squadron a not so long time ago, but nothing ever came of it.
     
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  16. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Yeah I meant it as a historical, not necessarily a 'weird world war'.
     
  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    7) maybe is depending what "in character" means
    8) The player regardless of all the above, even if not dressed or in character does or says "stupid things" I would find a Nazi Salute out of context for example inappropriate.
     
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  18. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    same thing for me.
    you can dress as you like, of course you'll probably find someone on the road that will likely beat your ass.
    but personally speaking, i have absolutely no problem with n°7
     
  19. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    I'd be pissed off from point 5 on, at 6 I would tell the guy what a dickhead he is and at 7 I could either not resist to beat up that guy or would leave the venue in disgust.

    What boardgames do you mean specifically? I think it is ok to feel morally uncomfortable about any misrepresentation of history. I rather have games that address the horror of colonialism and war than those who make those matters look smooth.
     
    #379 prophet of doom, Mar 23, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's marble? I thought it was plain bare concrete!

    Needs some more color in the marble, it's too plain.


    1) So what?
    2) Somebody has to play the bad guys
    3) Uhm, you said yourself it's historical. Different units have different historical performance.
    4) May fall afoul of local/regional laws, but again, it's historical. That's how the unit(s) in question looked. To pretend otherwise is whitewashing
    5) and 6) likely to get your ass beaten by idiots. But I note that it only seems to be the German players who show up in cosplay. Nobody shows up in other uniforms. The only time I'm going to beat your ass is if you're wearing Prison Camp Guard unit marks (and I do know what those are).
    7) depends on the nature of the character. If we're talking Colonel Klink or Sergeant Schultz (from Hogan's Heroes), then that's fine. If we're talking someone making "jokes" about killing civilians, then I'm likely to beat them to death with a dice bag.

    I play Flames of War. I play British tanks in the Desert, Americans in D-Day, Fallschirmjager throughout the war, and even some Weird War Germans (technically from Stalingrad to 1945 and into 46 with E-series vehicles). I usually put on a horrible German accent and shout "Get back in zee track" when it's time to un-bail my German vehicles, and shout "Get back in the bloody tank" for the Brits.

    I also play Flames of Vietnam. Air Cav like at Ia Drang and like Apocalypse Now, and I'm working on Black Horse. Need a lot of M113s and M551s for the Black Horse. I open the battle by playing Ride of the Valkyries when the helos come in.
     
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