I don't think rules complexity is the issue. Let me explain. In a typical game, you have 60 orders (30 per side). About half, 30, involve some player interaction, i.e., AROs. Most AROs are some combination of shoot and/or dodge. Probably about 2/3s to 3/4s based on my experience. Sure, you need to know modifiers, and that takes practice to learn range bands etc., but the numbers are clear after a couple games. That leaves us with about 10 orders a game which involve “unusual” rules. Half of those your opponent is going to be able to explain because they are using one of their special rules. That leaves you with 5 things you might have to think through together as a new player, assuming you don't have a TO or experienced player to help explain. As you play an army more, this only gets shorter and easier. Much of what people refer to when they talk about rules complexity for beginners is actually a question about what the “better” action is at that point in time. “Do I shoot or do I dodge?” “lay a mine or shoot back?” “Push the button or kill the HVT?”. Infinity creates situations with tactical trade offs constantly, and it is rarely as simple as throw more dice (although I certainly recommend throwing more dice when possible).
That's where you run into a problem. With a paper rulebook, if you have every interaction in every place it happens (plus a rule-number reference back to the other rules in question), you end up with a 500+pg rulebook like Star Fleet Battles (plus another 500+ pages of scenarios and a third 500+ pages of verbal ship descriptions, not counting the couple hundred ship control sheets for each of the couple dozen races. SFB eats up a hell of a lot of shelf-space!). And a 500+pg rulebook is really intimidating. If you removed all the repeated information, you'd be down to about 120 pages of rules, and that's not particularly scary to most gamers. Now, online on the wiki, I would absolutely want all the interactions in every location (with a hyperlink back to the specific rule). Because you don't see the size of the rulebook that way. The Infinity Dice Calculator is your friend for that. By the rules of the game, you need to decide on something before you actually measure and see what all the mods are, so you can't do the comparison before you decide. But you can make a decision, roll the dice, and then check your answer with the Dice Calc. It's no big deal if you're already using a tablet or laptop for your army list, or the wiki or whatever.
Agreed. Huge fan of the tool, recommend it to our new guys all the time. But that only deals with a part of what I am talking about. The IDC can't help you determine whether it is better to spend two extra orders avoiding their sniper vs. hoping you'rw able to outshoot it. It can't tell you if now is the time to reveal your TO infiltrator. It can't tell you if you should spend your last command token to coordinate a suppression or save it to reform a vulnerable fireteam next turn. These are complex decisions which I think are what most people are actually talking about when they say "complex rules." It's not the rules that are complex, it is the tactical decisions, which are my favorite parts of the game.
I also don't think the game is too complicated. The reasons are well explained by @MindwormGames . But I totally agree that the places where rules can be found and where information is presented are complicated to understand. If I recall my questionmarks from 2 years ago correctly it was like this: What is N3, Human Sphere and Paradiso? Is this relevant for me? Ah, there is a wiki linked in the army tool, is this official information or do I have to consult the books pdf? In which book/faq/pdf do I find what rule? Whats this ITS thing, is it official rules? Why can't I log into its.corvusbelli.com and find everything ITS related there? (and manage tournaments there too!) Why are there no news on infinitythegame.com while videos pop up daily on Youtube? Why is there a catalog on infinitythegame.com and the store on store.corvusbelli.com. And why does corvusbelli.com do not have a link to store.corvusbelli.com, while infinitythegame.com has? I learned to use this forum and to get all the relevant information about everything here. But I would clean up the different pages and organise it into: - "Official Rules" Wiki as a leading system including the latest FAQed texts, Army as the go-to tool and PDFs of books and FAQ as additional resources. - "ITS": Everything ITS related, including the OTM. - "Fluff": All the nice and cool mission pdfs. - "Additional resources": Marker sheets etc - "Useful 3rd party tools": Ask all the nice programmers out there to link to their helpful tools like the Hacking helper, Comlog, Dice Calculator etc...
I think Infinity gets more and more bloated. It is fine, it has depth, it is complex - not in its basic mechanics, but in its skill depth. I could use a clean up. Mechanical Deployment - with the Montesa now riding a bike, only a few Haqs and MRRFs has this skill and I see no one used ist, except for the Pan O Drone, that has is also (Peacemaker?). To get into the middle of field - we have: Infiltration (incl. Superior and Inferior), two Levels of Forward Deployment (not counting AD Levels here ;-) why we still need MD? Guard - The CC Skill no one wants and no one uses (as far as I see ;-). On top - the table does not represent a creature, guarding the user - it is mostly to make more DAM. Make it like a creature throws itself between the user and the attacker! Plus: Extra Tables for the Men-Eater-Aliens and Tohaa. AD Levels - Do we need so much? AD 2 - walk on board from the side - AD 3 - make 2 or jump - done! Give Hellcats a point more PH and it´s fine. Lean out - Hey I used it once! Hacking in general - is too bloated with programs. Clean it up! We don´t need X different prgs to IMM1 someone. I know - the abocve were mentioned over this thread before, but these are my main issues.
I agree with most of @archon 's points. I think Mech Deploy should stay in, but it is a problem that basically nobody uses it now. Peacemaker REMs don't really count since there's no other Mech Dep models in PanO anymore, we could give them FD or Infiltrate for the same effect. But the MRRF and Haqq models will need the limitation in deployment area that Mech Deploy has (though I'm not sure 'within ZOC of the first model' is enough of a restriction, it's much more reasonable than 'within a circular blast template' and the game doesn't really have any other standard measures like that). All the CC skills and Guard and Protheion need to be re-examined and possibly consolidated. Right now, Guard is a re-ordering of Martial Arts. bleh, that's boring. If you want Guard to do something different, make it do something actually different! hacking also needs some work. The balance between the different devices is way out of whack, KHDs basically make it so that there is no point in taking AHDs (unless you also take a KHD of your own, which makes AHDs cost about 30pts more). We should probably look at all the different hacking programs and what they do. It's OK to have a dozen different weapons when they have different range bands and damage, but the hacking programs don't really have different range bands, so we're in the same situation as the HMG in N2 where there was always one obvious best choice to use. As for the AD levels, the game used to have 3 (plus Tactical Jump). N2's AD1 and AD2 were the same, and AD3 was standard Combat Jump (AD4 now). Then came a model that had Inferior Combat Jump (IIRC, the Yuan-yuans got a PDF change, and jumped at PH-3), and then the Hellcats got Superior Combat Jump (jumping at PH+3), which were both out of sequence and needed additional special rules to allow them to use the lesser levels of AD. So it made sense to make 5 levels of AD, with Tactical Jump still being a Level X skill.
Absolutely, second to skills that just don't get used at all because they are so edge case, this is one area i'd love to see a rework. Like, just have a single Imm-1 program, and then restrict who it can target based on what type of hacking device the owner has. Or something like that anyway. Plus defensive hacking devices are kind of pointless, there is no niche for them.
As a new player (8 games so far) my largest gripe atm are with nested skills/equipment. V: Courage is a good example though it's reasonably easy for me as a JSA player to just know everyone has it. But just in my army there are 5 different sources from it, V: Courage, V: Dogged, V: NWI, Martial Arts, G: Remote Presence. You could make the argument that V: Dogged and V: NWI should be simple as they are just higher levels of Valor except it's not listed as V1: Courage, V2: Dogged, V3: NWI so without going to the actual page there is no way to know which order they come (and that ignores all the exceptions where having the higher level skill does not grant the lower one or there not being levels as such like most of the Ghost skills). Another which is more relevant for me if Forward Observer and Flash Pulse. Is it really that hard to just list Flash Pulse as an equipment on all profiles with Forward Observer? I find it hard enough as it is to remember that I need to use WIP instead of BS (which isn't actually listed on the page for the weapon, I need to go to the traits page to find that out) but also remember that I have it in the first place. I'm sure all this is second nature for all you experiences players but as a new player learning the game having to keep track of things like this while keeping track of all the other interactions is not easy. Heck some of my games have been against very experienced players and even they made simple rule mistakes. One didn't know about the V: Courage and Retreat interaction and other being a PanO player who hardly ever uses CC thought Surprise Attack had the same modifier as Surprise Shot.
The core of Infinity is about as solid as it gets (the order system overly punishes sub-10 order lists, which I would remark is odd for a game about small, elite black ops units, but that issue is as old as the game and endemic to one of its core features, so not a hill I am willing to die on most days... but I digress *cough* ). But with every new supplement, with every new release, with every new unit, CB just can't avoid re-inventing the wheel or adding on just one extra new rule. We already had Marksman (two levels!) that represented being a crack shot (beyond all the other things we had to represent that like a boosted BS, X-Visors, long-range weapons, etc.) but CB then went and added Fatality (two levels!) that fills the same conceptual niche. Do T2 and DA ammo need to exist as different things (what about AP, K2, and Mono)? Why are their so freaking many levels of AD? Two different kinds of Impetuous (and Frenzy of course)? Hell, why do we need three different levels of infiltration (baaaaaaaaaaaaaack in my day we had one and we loved it)? Especially with Forward Deployment also sitting around in basically the same conceptual space (not to mention the severely under-utilized Mech Deployment) and possibly being a more logical "inferior" infiltration than Inferior Infiltration (which almost feels like Infiltration LX: Suicidal Infiltration). MA contains Courage and Stealth (and several of its levels are effectively "dead" and basically just wrappers for those two skills... I mean fuck, MA is used more as a tax option these days than for actually making competent CC fighters). Hacking? Don't even get me started on that. 2nd Edition's hacking system was anemic, but at least it was brief. N3 manages to use more word and page count to make a system just as situational. You have reams of close combat skills that are just minor variations on MA, and I dare say that even MA itself is generally more bloated than it needs to be (no one will ever bloody well use MA2). Infinity also loves having it both ways. Sometimes, leveled skills are just logical modifier progressions (Surprise Shot, Hyperdynamics, etc.) and sometimes each level is a completely different thing (Holo, Camo, MA, Valour, etc.). And weapon profiles? Too damn many of them (though arguably that started early... the Ojotnik really didn't need to be its own gun but Ariadna has to Ariadna). They started off rather well, just a relatively easily parsed list of weapons with a lot of universally applicable range bands to help smooth learning. But then they started creating new unique weapons that weren't just new ammo variations on old guns. Is the game really better now that the Chain-Colt exists? Or the proliferation of SAW-esque non-HMG profiles where we could have just had a singular "SAW" with ammo variations instead of a Spitfire, Red Fury, Molotok, etc. And I can already hear the chorus "but it is all easy to look up on the wiki!" or "but you only have to remember the rules in your list!" To the first, I've been wargaming for over two decades at this point, and I've been an Infinity player since before the 1st Edition rule book existed. Infinity is still one of the few games I play that requires me to look up as much info as it does. And my library of played games isn't tiny either, I have dozens of games on the shelf and even some of the more complex ones like BattleTech don't require so much bloody investment in looking things up. That CB streamlined the look up a bit with a linked wiki is admirable, that the game becomes borderline unplayable without it is problematic. When I started playing Infinity in the hoary days of old, I didn't need a wiki and it was every bit as fun and tactically complex as it is now with umpteen zillion special edge case rules and pieces of equipment. The wiki treats a symptom of the bloat, but the bloat is still there. To the second? Any Warmachine player will tell you that what you don't know can kill you. To get good at Infinity you absolutely must know what your enemy is capable of lest you be blind-sided by them. Sure, your opponent can tell you about it, but given that a lot of strategy and tactics in Inifnity revolve around the use of hidden information and surprise, you eventually have to engage your own memory once the training wheels come off. Most of the difference between a good Infinity player and a bad one is down to memorization... and at this point in my life I am getting to the point where I can't be arsed to keep up with Infinity's march toward bloating itself right out of my brain. I can still sit down for a nice game of 40k 2nd Edition, not a simple game (as anyone who ever shot up a nine-man bike unit with an assault and had to deal with vehicle damage table roll fallout will attest), but I can play it largely from memory (and because the play aids are so god damn good) and not have to sweat a damn thing. Sitting here I can rattle off the stats for most of the weapons in the Armoury, build an army in my head (roughly of course), and I haven't sat down and played 2nd Edition in nearly a decade. And I've sure as hell played more games of Infinity than I have of 2nd Edition 40k. Infinity's problems aren't down to its core rules. Those are solid and a lot of fun. The problem is that the designers seem pre-disposed to thinking that more is always better. So we get more special rules piled on when old ones would fit the bill (especially those that are terribly under-utilized), we get more new gear and weapons when we already had a robust and easily modifiable system for variant weapons in place, we get more units that do the same thing as old ones, more, more, more. We're getting beyond the bloat we had even back in 2nd Edition and by the end of that game's life my interest in the system was flagging hard. I had hoped N3 would cut the cruft and help break the cycle that was bound to continue if CB just continued adding without thinking of how the game should expand. But here we are, back to where we were back when Paradiso had just dropped and we were all wondering how Acheron's Fall could be released without pushing the game past critical mass. Instead of fixing it, they just hit a reset button without thinking of how to mitigate the issue the second time around. Infinity's problem at this stage is down to bloat, obtuseness, and a general lack of elegance. It is a messy game, it feels like a messy game, and it is getting messier. CB need to be better wardens of their own IP and they need to be more cognizant of how things they add in affect it. The game contains too much stuff that doesn't make it better or more tactically diverse and if we ever see a 4th Edition, it is stuff like that that needs to go to make learning Infinity less of a cliff. I'm all for games having a high skill ceiling, but when you start setting the skill floor out of reach then you start engineering your own obsolescence.
Since everyone keeps calling Guard Guardian (possibly the original spanish is Guardian and there's been a little translation flub?) it could simply be reworked into actually having the big dog thingies have an actual presence rather than being tinbots. Rework both current profiles to have options lacking it, make them S2 by default, and have "Guardian" be a skill that works like this: -Each level now corresponds to a martial arts skill instead, since nothing uses 2 and 4 anyway right now. This mildly nerfs Andromeda a little as she does less damage, but has +3 CC now. -modifies silhouette to 4 -Grants an additional Burst to CC attacks since the dog thing actually does things! -You also have sensor and sixth sense L2 by default. Andromeda's profile is a bit bloaty that way, though, so if you are rejigging it.... just give superior infiltration base in OSS and replace those three options with (Guardian) on there?
People complaining about Guard need to remember one important thing about it: no stealth. I think that's the entire point of Guard - Martial Arts (with slightly more sensible scaling) and no stealth.
I mean, on one hand it makes sense. A valid point, I forgot that myself. But if it had stealth, would that make up for some of the other drawbacks the skill has? Even with the buffs they both got they're still a very meh-tier unit, and those buffs don't apply outside specific sectorials... including, oddly enough in Andromeda's case, the one she's meant to be from.
Andromeda has both guard and stealth. Why not just MA? MA scales better, giving both ppositive and negative mods, increasing chance to crit/assuring win of ftf, while guard... Well, it only increases chances for winning ftf:/ Against objectives like in looting and sabotage Guard lvl4 is as effective as... MA2;) Nope, however we will pu it, Guard is much LESS than just MA without Stealth.
I'm not claiming Guard is equivalent to Martial Arts, especially not that a level of MA is equivalent of a level of Guard, I'm saying it's sufficiently different in execution and intent that simply changing it to MA1 doesn't really work and that Guard's scaling is more sensible (as in, Guard has very similar types of bonuses while Martial Arts is all over the place in terms of what you actually get for a level). Personally, I would consider that Guard (Andromeda specificall) is more how we want Martial Arts, even if the specific numbers might differ. I.e. separate out Stealth (and Courage) and make the bonuses more consistent between levels. Not the other way around.
If Hellcats would get a +3 PH mod I would strongly vote for keeping L5 ;-) Inferior indeed gives a -3 mod on PH. I think that is the reason for the over the top PH of a Yuan (for that points!). So if you delete AD L3 you could also fix the yuans HI-like PH :-)
oops. Shows how often I've used that! YYs were PH13 in N1, when they were standard Combat Jump. They're high-PH to give them hitting power in CC, just like Irmandinhos.
I think that scenarios are too complex (in an unfun way) and require players to spend too much effort interacting with static objectives rather than the opponent.
Is the game getting too complex? Short answer: No. Long answer: No. People in this forum like to discuss so many things, but most often you loose in Infinity because of your own mistakes. Not because of not known or weird rules (which there are just two in my opinion: dodge vs. msv/smoke and saturation zone as well as speculative fire around multiple corners). And most often you loose face to face rolls or situations to the same skills over and over again. Because most things in Infinity are niche rules you can't use that often. So you use and experience the same things all the time. It is always good to know your opponent and the rules he can use, but in tournaments I always ask my opponent for: What weapons/heavy weapons does he have, where are the specialists and does he have MSV2/3 on the table. Rest is not that important to succeed in my opinion. My question is: Why make everything more simple than the rules we have? It is ok, that you don't know the rules after a dozen of matches. The game itself feels more entertaining and realistic just because of these possibilities. If you want something more simple you can play Bolt Action. But to me this is no fun at all. And I have never experienced a better system than Infinity. Played much 40K and Fantasy and damn, learning so often new rules, unit sheets and so on was a pain. Plus everything is/was not logical. The company didn't even care about fluff and sometimes you were lucky and the units you liked were good and the next edition these units were bad. Try to explain a newbie the army he likes gets new rules in a few years, he has to buy every few years new basic rules and that you can't predict that these units will have rules at all (happened to one of my armies, for example). The only bad thing about Infinity at the moment: The lack of units for new released profiles (how could I ever propose somebody to start Tunguska, for example), as well as discontinued armies (a new player wanted to start with MRFF and I had to tell him that he can't expect new models in the far future). They released too much this year, maybe because of some pressure in the old forum to release profles even if the models don't exist. I think they should slow down a bit and catch up with releases before bringing the new Shasvastii and more new stuff.
My group jokes that winning is 40% Skill 20% Luck 20% List/terrain/mission matchup and 20% knowing the rules better then your opponent.
