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Is the game getting too complex?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ranger, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    We all miss comic sans :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  2. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The CA REMs are weird in a couple of places

    Like the EVO. Has a combi rifle! And Exile! For like 3pts?
     
  3. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    CA EVO is significantly different than normal EVOs. Different stats, hell, even different Silhouette (S3 to S4 of other factions). Doesn't have Baggage. Etc.
     
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  4. Mask

    Mask Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion this isn't a good reason for the increased cost of Mimetism ..
    Troops with higher cost leave you with less orders. Paying also more army points for the same skill is part of the problem that leave us with the meme "orders is king"

    Mask
     
  5. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    That's so not true. It is missing 2 armor and bagge but has a smaler silhouette, think it is about 5 points in the math of infinity.
     
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Sure, but there are other elements of that profile that also affect the cost like having less points spent in ARM and BTS, a smaller S, and not having baggage.

    In either case, it's not a good comparison to a situation where literally the only difference is Mimetism.

    Wouldnt the solution be to make it more expensive for the lower costed units? It results in a greater percent increase in cost that does more to even the balance than dropping 1 point in cost on a 50 point unit.
     
  7. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    If you compare the Kriza with the Mowang you will see that there ist a point inbalance too. But in this point segment you don't realice it so much.
     
  8. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    While I don't disagree that there is definitely an opportunity cost to taking a high pointed unit vs several low pointed ones, you just can't get around the fact that a skill like CH increases in efficacy exponentially as the model gets tougher natively. This simply has to be factored in somehow. I mean, there's a reason the Sphinx costs over a third of your army... and is still competitive* to use.

    *Speaking from the PoV of my meta.
     
  9. Lesh'

    Lesh' MAFter of Apes
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    If I recall correctly minetism costs 1xp for spec-ops in amry builder. Assuming pts = xp
     
  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Pts do not = XP
     
  11. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I don't think you should look at "orders are king" at an individual unit basis. A Sphinx list with 13-14 orders will outperform a Sphinx list with ten orders. One of the reason the TAGs that are considered the strongest are the strongest (Tik, Sphink, Marut, for example) is because they are also in armies that can field them and still take 13-15 orders.
     
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  12. Mask

    Mask Well-Known Member

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    So how do you propose to factored the reduced "capacity" of your army order pool due to the medium/high cost of elite troops???
    This doesn't need to be considered when you set the exponentially augmented cost of the skills??
     
  13. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Marut list with 10 Orders is almost certainly superior to Marut list with 13-15, simply due to the fact that to make those 13-15 you have to take borderline-functionality troopers (3 Netrods, 2 Flash Pulse bots, maybe some Baggage).
     
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  14. Mask

    Mask Well-Known Member

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    Then give to everyone that possibility (also altering some AVA to avoid abuse) and we will see more elite army lists with 13/14 orders and less "horde lists with one or two "alpha strike" and 17/18 orders.

    Mask
     
  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Why would you not take 3 Netrods in every single game as Aleph? And yeah, some factions will always take AVA flash bots because they are the cheapest order, and sniffers are useful in their own right.

    Build an LI list with a Marut and 9 orders that can't be improved by putting 3 netrods and a specialist in group 2. (It doesn't really exist.)
     
  16. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I have a small sample size of my local meta, so take this with a grain of salt, but I see it already factored by their enhanced survivability. It simply takes more orders (or should) to get rid of a high point-costed unit than a low one (there are many other factors that could be considered, but I don't think it's necessary for this discussion). If adding a skill increases that survivability more on an already survivable unit (like mimetism on a high-BS platform), then it should cost more.

    Just to throw some completely random numbers out there. Let's say that it takes 1.5 orders to eliminate a low-costed-unit and adding skill A increases that to 2 orders (on average). If it takes roughly 3 orders to eliminate a high-costed unit and adding skill B increases that to 6 (again, on average), shouldn't skill B be worth more points?

    I say yes. It just so happens that skill A and skill B are the same skill (mimetism, in this case). Therefore, that skill should cost more for the already high-costed unit. Before I get the rebuttal, it shouldn't matter that the numbers I made up don't, necessarily, translate directly in game terms. Sometimes we have to take things to the extreme to see what relationships exist. We know that mimetism is better on a high-cost platform than a low one (I showed this in an earlier post). I even showed how much better (more than double the increase for that particular case). All I should need to show is that mimetism is "better" for some units than others, and argue that "better" should cost more.

    How much more? Well, that's not something I have the knowledge to get into, so I'll leave that to others. It could very well be that the answer is less than a point, but I doubt it...
     
  17. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Because they're pretty fragile, and take up space that could be another tool.
     
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  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    They are (at least) three times as resilient as anything else you could take for the same price, and also make the order your proxies provide basically unremovable.
     
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  19. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I follow, what else do you see in that price point that provides an order? It's a ARM0/BTS3/STR1 S2 model which cannot move or take cover, and must make a AD drop, which results in it's scattering into a potentially bad position about 40% of the time.

    About the only thing I'm aware of in that price point are warbands (so, like a 5 point chain rifle 45ther), who have ARM1, can move, often dodge using smoke, and deploy into your DZ without a scatter. There are also Palbots and their equivalents at 3 pts, with ARM0/BTS3/STR1, but can move, take cover, and are S1 instead of S2.

    Don't get me wrong, Netrods are nice, but they have some downsides that make them pretty flimsy, and not an auto-include.
     
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  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Sorry, I think I wasn't clear. The next cheapest order in Aleph is a 12 point Thorakite (discounting 8 point bots, which I guess you dislike for the same reason you dislike Netrods).

    A Thorakite takes only one order of shooting to kill. Three Netrods takes (probably) three orders of shooting to kill. With three of them, one should almost always land where you want it to be (there's about a 6% chance of missing all three) at which point it's already better than the Thorakite who will sit in your DZ doing nothing all game. Palbots don't provide orders. And scattering doesn't even matter in the games you go first (and you're almost always edged to win the lt roll as Aleph.) At worst, Netrods are twice as efficient as 8 point bots.

    This is like arguing for taking any less than 8 Kuang Shi in ISS or less than 4 in vanilla, or playing CHA with less than 16 orders. Sure, you can do it, but you do it with the understanding it's not the most ideal way to play the faction.