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Is the game getting too complex?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ranger, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    It's quite unfair to not count the cost of Jumper LZ or Hacker into that calculation.

    But, since you ask:
    upload_2019-1-29_22-16-21.png
    upload_2019-1-29_22-19-46.png
    upload_2019-1-29_22-20-7.png
    (yeah BS 12 only but MSV1)

    vs

    upload_2019-1-29_22-17-7.png
    (Deva is there because she can be the fifth team member. Any other variant costs more, although it would add a 6th order but still)

    Or jumper LZ (note that here it does provide 6 orders to 5 otherwise, but hey, add a Line Kazak or Fusilier or Regular to previous lists)
    upload_2019-1-29_22-18-21.png
     
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    You forgot that Aleph gets a 14 point hacker.

    And again, I'm not saying Dakinis are unbalanced, but I would point out that the strength you're showing with these similar lists is a soft strength, built into their army lists by way of flexible linking, but the advantage that the Dakinis have is a hard strength, built into the fact that Mimetism is undercosted.
     
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  3. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    A minimum of 24 points, given that you have to take 2 bodies. On top of a 11 point CSU. Thus, it costs slightly more than a Deva option, thought it provides additional Order.

    Note however that both PanO options cost almost 30 points less, while TAK brings an AP HMG and not a regular HMG.
    Dakinis Mimetism is most definitively not undercosted. They cannot go prone - you'd be surprised how often that is a problem, for example you cannot place Sniper prone on a roof but you have to hope there is a good cover), Dodge abysmally, and are Hackable. Sure, they're also faster and have Mimetism, and can be upgraded with an expensive Hacker, but all that costs more points, on top of the already expensive Dakini (13 point vs 9/10 point is significant). In an otherwise extremely expensive faction. Posthuman can only carry the day so much (and please don't even bother mentioning Netrods).

    So no. Dakini cost is perfectly fine.
     
  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    You mean the cheapest hacking device in the game, right? You also failed to address how one of these is an issue with army design (link teams) which is completely subjective and the other is an issue with costing design (which follows a strict formula.)

    Why are you so stuck on Dakinis, anyway? I've pointed out over and over this is a problem on all BS11 Mimetism units. I think the worst offender is the Q-Drone.
     
  5. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Again with the cheapest. Posthuman costs a minimum of 24 points. And while it is good, true, that's still only AVA1 with link which is comparable in strength to most other links (sure, they shoot better and move faster but Dodge worse, are vulnerable to Hacking, and have fewer loadouts available). Not to mention that putting up a Hacking program requires Orders and either proximity or Repeaters. None of which is a problem by itself, but it all counts into the opportunity cost.
    Because your statements are blanket and that's not really applicable to Mimetism. Even on BS11 platforms, of which Dakinis are example I'm most familiar with.

    I agree that Mimetism on Q Drone is undercosted, but not because it is undercosted on BS11 platforms, but rather because it is undercosted when combined with Total Reaction.
     
    #605 Nemo No Name, Jan 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
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  6. Mask

    Mask Well-Known Member

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    I don't get it.
    The gap difference between a BS11 troop with Mimetism and a BS14 troop with Mimetism is due to the difference between 11 and 14... ... So why should Mimetism cost more for a BS 14 troop when the higher gap is determined only by BS and the cost of such difference is already paid in the cost in army points of the model???

    Mask
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Because orders are king by design.
     
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  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what I've been trying to say!


    When my RP group made an Infinity RPG by bolting a skill system onto the Infinity core rules (jeez, back in like 2008!), I handed the guy GMing the system one of the old N1 Quickstart Rules pamphlets. Later, I bought him a copy of N2.


    Mimetism is 2pts on the Moblots (who are HI).


    Compare what happens to the odds of success when your effective BS is 14 (+3 range, -3 cover) with target's effective BS of 2 (-3 range, -3 cover, -3 mimetism), versus your effective BS of 11 with target's effective BS of 2.
     
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  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I just ran the numbers and the effect of mimetism is identical to the effect of adding 3 BS, all other things equal. Adding BOTH, is a marked increase in the effect, however.

    Custom TR bot vs Linked HI HMG (BS13), both in cover-

    TR bot has BS11:
    16.25% (TR) vs 63.5% (HI)

    TR bot has BS11 and mimetism:
    20.5% (TR) vs 51.3% (HI) (+4.25% for TR bot above base)

    TR bot has BS14:
    20.5% (TR) vs 51.3% (HI) (+4.25% for TR bot above base)

    TR bot has BS14 and mimetism:
    30.8% (TR) vs 35.0% (HI) (+10.3% from no mimetism)

    For funzies TR bot has BS17:
    30.8% (TR) vs 35.0% (HI)

    The take away is that if adding BS is scaled (as it probably is, or at least should be), then adding mimetism to a trooper needs to consider the base BS. +3 BS is a bigger deal on an already high BS.
     
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  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    @Sabin76 nails this in their post -- notice how the benefit of Mimetism is increased rapidly once the BS without Mimetism is higher. Mimetism on a Mowang is going to be a lot more effective in most rolls in terms of how it swings things than it is on a BS11 troop. Mimetism on a Tikbalang is basically as valuable as the skill can possibly be.
     
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  11. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Is it even true? I doubt it.
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Look at the Q-Drone, then do the math on Lupe. Alternatively, the Paracommando has a simple enough stat line that it's not hard to figure out. The ASA machinist is also a very easy comparison point...

    I'm not going to spoon feed the math to you, since there's a soft moratorium on it, but I think that's enough that you should be able to figure it out for yourself.
     
    #612 meikyoushisui, Jan 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    @Sabin76 just did a nice chunk of math to show how the effect of Mimetism increases with the base BS of the trooper. (Thank you!)

    Q-Drones with TR HMGs (and Mimetism) are 26pts, while the all-other-stats-identical Husong TR HMG (without Mimetism) is 25pts. I rest my case. (CB has long held that obvious comparisons are obvious, no prohibition against naming those names. It's the full reverse-engineering that CB has asked us to not share.)
     
  14. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Out of curiosity I tested the same configuration out using with the calculator, using a Mobile Brigada as a generic HI. The mimetism and +3 BS have slightly different numbers, but it's really shockingly close.

    I really need to get better at using the Q-Drone; I have no excuse for how often I let that thing die.
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Q Drones also have Climbing+ over the Husong.

    They're exactly the same cost as a Reaktion. So they actually get Mimmetism for free (or more correctly fractional points). ;)
     
  16. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    upload_2019-1-30_12-17-11.png

    ?????????
     
  17. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Since when have Q-Drohne Climbing+?
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I stand corrected. I really could have sworn they did.

    Still, I'm sure, we can agree that Climbing+ and Mimetism are equally valuable.
     
  19. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    I'm not convinced that this is the case. Climbin+ may be useful depending on the table layout, while Mimetismus is always useful, even if you don't move the miniature.
     
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  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I thought that statement was obviously sarcastic in context. There is no way that C+ has the same gameplay value as Mimetism.
     
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