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Is the game getting too complex?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ranger, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I'm pretty sure you still take the Oniwaban in this case and give up the datatracker point...
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Seems like a valid list building decision. I don't play JSA so don't know the trade offs well enough. I think the list building decision between "do I opt to maximize points or pick a list that more efficiently achieves points" is an interesting one.

    In Nomads I start doing things like running a solo Hollowman or Percy in Tournament packs that include Decap, even though Bran is the absolute most efficient way to get the Designated Target kill. These offer me options that can reliably achieve the kill even when going second, and (if played conservatively) have a reasonable chance of preventing my opponent getting a Datatracker kill.

    I think that's interesting and valuable.
     
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  3. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    I see some discussion of whether Decapitation could be improved, but also that the basic style of objective points was staying in place. I really don't like this kind of scoring, and wonder what others think generally?

    Every time I've played this mission it became The Points-Spread Calculation Game From Hell, with both parties having to do arithmetical 'what if' speculations and tally unit and army points before making active turn and ARO decisions. For me, it lost all semblance of what I come to Infinity for, and became an unlovely exercise in mathematics.

    I appreciate that many of the ITS missions do require watching the points spread to an extent, and I'm up for advice on how to get on and enjoy the mission more, but don't others feel as I do, that this is exactly the wrong sort of complexity - because it's too complicated (having too many parts)?
     
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  4. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    The Wildcats have been rather mediocre ever since the start of N3 and I say that as a guy that loves them and tries to shove either them or Geckos into every Corregidor list I make. But I am clearly alone in this, every other Corregidor player I know plays standard Alguacil or Jaguar Core and McMurrough/Tsyklon for punch (aside from auto-include Intruder). Sometimes Brigada for LI.
    Note that I compared them to Prowler, who is generally considered awful. My point was that Prowler has a defined role (infiltrating killer MI) while Wildcats don't. I guess they're more assault-y than Alguaciles due to Spitfire and HRL in place of HMG and ML, but they're still more or less in the realm of "standard LI but bigger".
    It's definitely more of a problem with Bolts; I know they are supposed to be the standing army for NeoTerra, which probably explains their ML and MSR, but they generally want to be mid-field. Similar Muyibs (I know they're LI) have a clearer theme, being all loaded with explosives, clearly stating "there are the demo-men". But it's the clear-cut MI that usually gets picked over generalists (like Black-Friar, Lasiq, Intruder, Sin-Eater etc).
    But maybe I am just nitpicky. Those generalist MI units (Bolts, Wildcats, Druze etc) usually look cool.
     
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  5. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    If you think that's bad take a look at Rescue some time. Lets say your opponent has 2 civs in the dead zone and 1 on the deployment zone, you have 1 in each zone, currently the score is 3-1 in your opponents favor,
    if you move the one in the exclusion zone to the dead zone it becomes 2-2,
    if you move it to the deployment zone it becomes 3-3,
    if you move the one in the deployment zone one to the dead zone it becomes 5-3 in opponents favor
    and finally the right move that is to move the one in the dead zone one to the deployment zone making it 4-3 in your favor.
    And that's before including potential points from the datatracker.
     
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  6. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Wildcats are pretty kickass in my opinion, with FDL1, BS 13 and their relatively cheap cost I often find they do great.
     
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  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I think I'm going to have to add that comment to the advanced planning part of Section9's Listbuilding Rules of Thumb.
     
  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This. Really solid particularly in Zone Control missions now.
     
  9. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    So do the Bolts. They aren't very shiny if you intended to send them in your opponent's DZ first turn but they are gold for scenarios like Frontline etc. I really don't understand why there is so much hate about them. Are they optimised or costed as they should now? Maybe not. Is the package interesting? Above average to me. With all Shock and EM ammos that are on the battlefield those days, I'm glad they still are what they are. If I could have mixed links now, that would be perfect.

    As for rules, I agree that ITSX has added maybe the drop they shouldn't. I need to read again the new skills too as I have difficulties with the two ghost skills.
     
  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Because the forums (or rather, some vocal posters) have decided that a number of perfectly fine and even good troops are garbage based on relatively little actual basis.

    I will happily accept "Bolts do not work for me" but I think that they're pretty good and FDL1 was excellent for them.
     
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  11. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    As we know, its feature of Infinity that it's very finely balanced, which means that it becomes a very different game at each level as people increase their experience, and achieve greater skill.

    Such better players then unfortunately forget how different the game was to them earlier on - perhaps years and many hundreds of games ago, and post on the forums as though everyone were at their high standard.

    For example, @xagroth recently said that a new ALEPH model is priced a couple of points too expensive, which may well be true for his games and at the level he plays, but to me at my level, such fine distinctions dont make or break a unit.

    I don't lose because a model costs 2 points too much, I lose because I fail to achieve my objectives, fail to stop my opponent achieving his, and generally watch my units running around like headless chickens until my opponent drops a template on my chicken run side of the table! :grin:
     
    #571 Wolf, Jan 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I think that a lot of the problem with Bolts is that the rest of PanO is very finely tuned to do one thing really, really well. This makes generalists like Bolts look extremely expensive to PanO players. To this primarily YJ player, Bolts only look a little pricey.

    Another part is that the Combi+LSG seems to be paying full cost for the LSG, when the LSG is rarely the optimal answer for shooting in the 0-8" rangeband.

    An extra 3 points on one model isn't a big deal, usually. But an extra 3 points a model across your entire Core Fireteam is suddenly an extra 12-15 points in the army as a whole. And that really mattered before the days of super-flexible link teams, and still matters now for Bolts in particular.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Baghs got away with it, even before mixed links, because BS12 + Mimmetism + MSV1 is really efficient for a primarily shooting unit. Nisse get away with it because hardly anyone takes the Combi+LSG profiles (which is basically the same for Baghs now).

    The fact Bolts also overpay for Bioimmunity (which should be a free upgrade over Shock Immunity given its usual in game relevance), have the MI CC tax and the fact that Veteran seems to be a scaled skill all contribute to their bloated cost.

    This is my problem with Bravery and mixed links: it papers over the issues with these sorts of bloated links (well except for Bao, Govads and Minutemen who simply miss out) but doesn’t address the underlying issues AND it buffs units that simply didn’t need it (Mk 5 PH, Intruders, Grunts etc).
     
  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Except you're not paying for it on every fireteam member. It's likely you've got a Spitfire and a MSR or Missile Launcher in there (who has the Shotgun.. and gets lots of use out of it). Then if you take a Hacker, it has a BSg. So you're really overpaying for 2-3pts on 2 guys, and arguably overpaying for the Drop Bears by 1-2pts too although they're so good and starting closer to the enemy these days makes them even better. And that's assuming you don't swap out your LT Bolt for a BSg/Grenade Bolt, reasonable priced and also means you're overpaying on the DB loadout alone, to the tune of 5pts at most?

    Assuming not though, working on the top end of the scale you're then looking at 8pts overcosted on guns, if that. Now you might say "but Bolts are overcosted with Bioimmunity and Veteran" and I... don't agree? Bioimmunity is more useful than Shock Immunity because it brings that excellent BTS 6 into play, and Veteran is basically Immunity: E/M and Isolation effects in general. Given how many jammers you see these days (Hecklers and ZCs are both very popular when taken) as well as E/M weapons, this is very strong. A lot of people feel that shock is very prevalent and that NWI is useless, which I don't agree with, but Shock definitely is a thing and the ability to be ARM 9 in cover vs anything with Shock is nice (plus if they can turn it off, with MML2 or MULTI weapons etc it means your Bolt might be KO'd but not dead, so you can medic them).

    Look at a Wildcat Rifle. 19pts, with D-Charges, Multi-terrain and a LFT over the Bolt in gear, and WIP 13 in stats. But the Bolt has a LSg which is awesome in CQB, and also gets the aforementioned immunities. Take away the D-Charges, MT, WIP 13 and the LFT (which all cost 1pt I reckon), add on the +4pts that LSgs clearly cost, you're back 0n 19pts. So you're paying 3pts for Veteran L1 and Bioimmunity which... seems very reasonable to me? It's not like these guys are hugely inefficient at CQB shooting.

    So yeah I don't agree that Bolts are overcosted and underspecialised. Bolts have Drop Bears, E/M Grenades and a proliferation of Shotguns, plus they start closer to the enemy. CQB experts with ranged firepower to take out overwatch troops? This seems very good to me. People act like the LSg and DB tax on the Bolts is costing them 10-15pts in a fireteam core. It doesn't, it is at max about 8pts.

    I don't like to get heavy into the granularity of pts costs because I feel like it's often unhelpful but when people talk about Bolts like they're costing you your entire Machinist or Trauma-Doc or whatever, I feel like that's not really accurate. Also people say that these links are bloated and I don't think that's true; the idea behind mixed links is efficiency at the cost of broader resilience and capability. I use full Govad teams regularly and I never think "oh this sucks I should be able to link Ghulams in here," because having all of those 5-person link bonuses on everyone with MSV1 is actually really useful for setting up AROs.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Big part of the reason for Bolts-hate is that Pan-O has a large number of highly competent shooter units with 1 wound, there's a lot of competition for the points and for most people the Bolts lose out in comparisons. Also, any model with Combi+LSG is paying a premium for the privilege of having overlapping rangebands (except the Aragoto), and I can't really think of any model with Combi+LSG that's popular, but correlation isn't necessarily causation etc etc.
     
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  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    How many troops actually have that CR+LSg weapon option these days anyway? No Nomad troops, no ALEPH troops, no Ariadna or Haqq troops, no Tohaa troops that I recall... I think it's basically on Rodoks in CA, Aragoto in JSA, Bao in YJ and the rest are in PanO? You'll note that the new Echo Bravo CR+LSg Paramedic with WildParrot is very popular and for good reason, so it's not like the loadout instantly dooms any troop to crap.

    I am happy to accept that CR+LSg is probably overpointed but I take issue with the idea that if you take a fireteam core of Bolts you're therefore overpaying by like, 15pts. You're not because most Bolts in that team... won't have CR+LSgs. If people don't think Bolts work for them then that's cool but they are pretty good and they actually do CQB really well. You can chuck down a Drop Bear or two and then use the E/M Grenades to spec fire and trigger an ARO meaning you can basically Mine Template people at range, without ever exposing yourself to LoF. They are extremely resilient towards enemy mines, which apparently why Zhencha are crap after all... Like I don't think that people use Bolts properly is what it is.

    Sure, 1W shooters are relatively prevalent in PanO. But not core linkable ones in NCA, outside of Fusiliers which are much more focused at range.
     
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  17. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    No, but any Combi+LSG profile is good in spite of the loadout rather than because of it. The reason the Wildparrot loadout is good is because the Wildparrot is insanely good.

    This isn't the only complaint about the profile though. The Bioimmunity + BTS6 thing is cute, but of very limited application since the majority of shock weapons shoot AP as well, and you should almost never be in LoL in NCA anyway, so the Veteran L1 is rarely going to be valuable. Altogether you have a profile that you are paying a bunch of extra costs for things with very niche utility.

    A unit with Veteran L1 isn't bad, a unit with high BTS and Bioimmune isn't bad, and a unit with Combi + LSG isn't bad, but those are all things that are very pricey for niche utility. When you stack a bunch of undercosted skills with great utility onto a unit you end up with Dart, but when you stack a bunch of overcosted skills with niche utility you end up with Bolts.
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Also, paying +4 pts for AD with Suppression Fire and Templates isn't awful. A little expensive, but useful enough you won't complain.

    Whereas in a Bolt link you have a BSG for when you absolutely want templates.

    Bolts aren't overpaying by 15pts, they're overpaying by 5-10pts. With FD1 it's at the lower end of that range. With Bravery all you really need to do is cost C+LSG appropriately and Bolts would be decent (for certain missions). Or you could fix all their underlying issues and achieve the same thing without buffing things that didn't need to be buffed.
     
  19. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, BSG Bolt is rather limited to 8" to be effective. The standard Bolt can be threatening until 16" and even deadlier below. Shotgun are useful to make your opponent pay for each little placement error. I can't count the time I shot at a mine or against a WB that was going to win the FtF just because I knew I could kill one or two guys behind unopposed. The WB could still try to have his smoke, the trade was worth it.
    A lot of PanO problem solvers are one that are E/M sensible at least and which wouldn't love a hit of viral ammo. What appears more and more those days are the way to counter them and force you to don't use them to solve your problems. Bolts are the problem solvers to the counter of the original problem solvers. Even compared to Magisters, they are better against minefields, and even more when there are E/Maulers in them.
    Add to this all the love the community has about Shock MMR and Red Furys and you will see that they can easily be at home.
    I really don't feel to be cheated to the fact that I pay the combi and the LSG. Two weapons for two uses and very few overlapping situations.
    About the Drop Bears costing more for them than for the BF, I'm a bit more in line with you that I'm paying too much for this mighty tool in my toolbox.

    I have a friend that send me this list few days ago :
    Tartary Army Corps
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10
    STRELOK K-9 Submachine Gun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines + 1 K-9 Antipode / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] K-9 ANTIPODE Trench-hammer, AP CC Weapon. (8)
    STRELOK K-9 Submachine Gun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines + 1 K-9 Antipode / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] K-9 ANTIPODE Trench-hammer, AP CC Weapon. (8)
    STRELOK K-9 Submachine Gun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines + 1 K-9 Antipode / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] K-9 ANTIPODE Trench-hammer, AP CC Weapon. (8)
    SCOUT (Minelayer) Ojotnik, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
    SCOUT (Minelayer) Ojotnik, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
    SCOUT (Minelayer) Ojotnik, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
    SCOUT (Minelayer) Ojotnik, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
    VASSILY Lieutenant (Forward Observer) T2 Marksman Rifle, Akrylat-Kanone, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35)
    TANKHUNTER Portable Autocannon, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
    SPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    5 SWC | 299 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    And then I was glad I could play Bolts because this would suck something more standard in NCA on the tables we are used to play together.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Bolts aren't overpaying by 5, let alone 10. They're a cheap unit for what the profile can offer, but they are in direct competition with profiles that typically offer more reliability in a straight up fight (Bagh-Mari/Nisse) or have sufficiently close performance at a much, much, lower price (Fusiliers). The fact that they were touted as being the backbone of NCA while being both too expensive to form the rank-and-file must leave a bitter taste, but fact of the matter is the unit is decent and would make an excellent replacement in most armies with or without the DropBear profile (which incidentally is probably the most overpriced of the bunch). Just not in Pan-O.
     
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