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Is the 15 unit limit a good design choice?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by redeemer, Aug 16, 2020.

?

is the 15 unit limit for ITS rule a good change or not

  1. yes

    147 vote(s)
    81.2%
  2. no

    34 vote(s)
    18.8%
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  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    72+ for Kamau
    81+ for Haidao
    76+ for Dahshat Brawler
    106+ for Druze Brawler
    142+ for Nisse
    105+ for Djanbazan

    Some of those are better than others. Djanbazan team is very varied with a specialist and some unexpected surprises while the Nisse team has a bunch of competent premium light infantry to pick up the slack, but the rest need to spend some more to become viable for something other than cheerleading their sniper. To me, at least, only the Nisse and Kamau actually reach such high MODs thanks to Mimetism that they become really hard to deal with during the active turn.
    I think mostly that these will stand out.

    That is of course if we limit to MSV2 only, now that MSV1 opens up a bit of options and a much wider range of weapons. (I'm just hoping there is clear guidelines in the rules how being shot through smoke while having MSV1 works)
     
    SpectralOwl likes this.
  2. SpectralOwl

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    My bad, didn't go fishing for exact numbers and ballparked it from memory. I actually was including stuff like Khawarij MK12 in RTF and Dakinis in OSS (they have Mimetism and are actually stronger than some of the MSV guys when buffed), and I'm on the fence about Druze Shock Teams(you can mix in a lot of Brawlers, the Clipper, Cordelia or Valerya and Druze are certainly no dead weight), but Nisses aren't bad despite having the same numbers as a Kamau just because you have to pay in proportion to their effectiveness. Most of the others like the Grenzer are certainly no balance nightmare, but it would be nice to see the archetype with less frequency.

    Edit; adding on here to respond to @Mahtamori 's comment. I wound up running the numbers for an active-turn Swiss Guard HMG against most of the meta picks for this archetype. MSV2 and MSV1+Mimetism both give a defender about 18% chance of wounding a Swiss and another 30% of nothing happening. The Kamau and Nisse, with both MSV2 and Mimetism, have about a 30% chance to wounding the Swiss, greater than it has of hurting them back. An Aquila always has better odds against anything with Mimetism, though. My worry is that either crap like the Kamau will proliferate, murdering NCA, Steel Phalanx and their ilk, or that factions like Ariadna won't be able to contest objectives anymore thanks to lacking firepower through Smoke or safety through Camo able to match up to Riot Grrls, Bagh Mari or the like.
     
    #542 SpectralOwl, Sep 2, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
    ijw likes this.
  3. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    also remember that not all NA2 have access to core for brawlers. Starco for example only gets a haris
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Thanks for the clarification. I though you were specifically talking about Snipers with MSV2 in a Fireteam of much cheaper Troopers, which is still pretty rare.

    The Khawarij I regard as a completely different beast, as it's much more an active turn piece and relatively weak in ARO. Leaving it out to snipe Warbands etc. is just going to get it murdered by a Spetsnaz, or even an unlinked Veteran Kazak or equivalent.
     
  5. SpectralOwl

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    Mid-grade MSV in cheap links was the criteria, though Dakinis got included anyway thanks to MML2. Frontoviks and Hortlaks are better examples.
     
  6. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    Cool, then I guess there's no point continuing a discussion. Because with as many 'goon' units(Fusiliers, Alguaciles, etc) as we have in this game? There needs to be some kind of squad mechanic in play for those units. They're not operatives. They're a holdout from the game starting life as an RPG and either need to get cut or adapted into working like that. There never should have been a time where they get used to 'buff up' others.

    You talked about asymmetry earlier, and this game needs to have that in an actual meaningful manner when it comes to playing. I've never understood why they did not adopt an 'Attacker' and 'Defender' designation for playing missions, with 'Defenders' being able to take the goons while 'Attackers' have to take the special operations style lists.
     
    Nuada Airgetlam likes this.
  7. SpectralOwl

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    They're the lowest grade of unit, but not meant to be goons as such. If you actually put orders into them they can lift a lot of weight. They're designed to fill gaps in core competencies created by top-heavy listbuilding at the lowest price, though they're more rarely seen these days thanks to overly-efficient REMs and Skirmishers plus their offense-oriented basic loadout where many players would prefer something passive or trade-oriented. An unlinked Fusilier with a HMG is fully capable of pressing through opposition three times her price, and is still far from a rare choice for a PanO player looking for a backup gunner for something pricy that may eat a missile crit.
     
    Urobros, Mahtamori, Hisey and 3 others like this.
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