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Is LoF open info?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Oct 23, 2020.

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  1. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    If you stand over there and look at the table, feel free. But if it's a tournament and you insist on walking around the table and trying to get to the eye level from every possible model's angle to "check" all of the LoF - dude. You're stalling, gtfo and play the game. Place the model and then I'll call what AROs I think are initiated and we'll check what LoF every model involved in that situation actually has.

    Even in a pick up game that'd be an obnoxious thing to do before every single move.
     
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  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    I'm sure you have a source for that claim xD
     
  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Sure, but if I want to check if I'll have LoF to your dude on a rooftop by moving my guy 1" around a corner, am I not allowed to look at the board before moving him out?
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If you're familiar with the "play by Intent" debate, basically having LoF be open information at all times is what enables that play to happen in a practical way. So if that's called into question, it gives those folks way too much ammo. Based on the wording of Berserk it seems to me that the ability to measure LoF between a trooper and a potential target before declaring an order is implied, as otherwise Berserk wouldn't work, but obviously we have this thread and some people are disagreeing.

    That wasn't RAW in N3 but you were arguing for it then. Nobody plays it that way.
     
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  5. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    No, I was all for it being this way. I've made an N4 thread specifically about it being RAW in the new book.

    And again you make baseless claims.

    Look away, sure. But look at the spot where you want to place him without placing the model. Then move the model into the final position and deal with the consequences of any and all LoF you did not spot or misjudged. That's part of the game.

    You just can't declare "I place this model so that only this guy can see me" and expect the opponent to buy it. The opponent will say "it's step 6 now, let me check the LoF. Oh, this model of mine sees him too! And this one from the backline as well! Come around the table and see! No idea how you didn't notice, but you gotta admit, it is what it is. This ML dude sees you on the corner there!".

    TL;DR - you can't declaratively limit the LoF and ARO of your opponent anymore. You don't have that declarative control. It's rough, but "place the model in the final position and then check for LoF" means exactly that.
     
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  6. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    OK, so could I ask "hey, my back is stiff from playing all day, can your dude see my guy if he moves around this corner?"
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    For practical purposes, you have to be able to declaratively limit positioning, because models and terrain can be jostled during play. It's just unworkable otherwise. This isn't fucking Jenga.
     
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  8. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    I'll say "Yeah, he might, depending on how you place him there. Here's a pic on my phone of his perspective. Go ahead and after you place him, I'll use my phone again as well as the laser marker to give you all the new LoF and ARO I discover from that final model position".

    I think that's fair. I've played before with a disabled player on a wheelchair just like this, helping him to see from my side of the table and check LoFs from my models he's asked for.

    That part is no different in N4. You just can't declare limits to my ARO / LoF if I check what they are after you place the model in its final position.
     
  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    That's like, your opinion, dude. Judging LOF and ARO threats and positioning your models accordingly is part of the game. Not sure why you're supposed to play on easy mode.

    If you were a disabled player with cerebral palsy or Parkinson's who literally can't precisely place models, I'd gladly make an exception, physically place them for you and probably even play intent for the speed of it. But N4 rules are what they are - no intent play. Place the model in final and then check LoF/ARO. Even if I were the one moving all the pieces and you going "more to the left, a bit more and.. yeah, hug it to the wall, facing towards the sniper", that's you deciding on the final position. And then I'll have you deal with the consequences of that choice.

    I'm sorry the rules have been made less lenient and you don't like it, I guess.
     
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Now you're wasting time, as I'll just walk around the table to check if the dude can see the corner. Why not just say if he can or not?
     
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  11. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    That's beside the point. I can answer if my dude sees a corner.

    But if I have three dudes in a row on a roof, you can't say "I place my dude on the corner so that he sees only Dude#1" anymore. And you can't place him there, but then go "oh, three of them see him? I'll pull back. Two still see him? OK, pulling back more. One sees him now? Fine, I Shoot" becase we check LoF / ARO only after the model is in the final position.

    You need to plonk the model down in the final position and deal with what I find out I can see.

    This is a decision making game and you need to make those decisions. Model placement is important. True line of sight is important.

    Virtualizing LoF because of the declarative "placement" was a sort of a shortcut that wasn't technically disallowed in N3 so people used it a lot. Some didn't, some did.

    But in N4 you simply can't do that anymore. Verboten.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Kindly get out of my way so I can check 40 different things before you have managed to unlock your phone. Not least of which are where the hell your markers are and how you've lined up your dudes. There are 0 reasons to bar your opponent from walking around the table other than withholding information you think they need.
     
  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    You seem to be missing the point, please read above.

    I won't bar you from walking around the table. You just can't plonk the model down and then expect to walk around, then adjust, then walk around, then readjust. Do your walk, check stuff that can see that Important Corner, place the model and I'll say what I think can see you and ARO.

    And you can't walk around the table and place the model and declare "only THIS guy can see my model" either.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Have you ever played the game? Have you ever bumped a model with your hand? There's literally no way to resolve that, because its new position isn't correct and there's no way to unerringly put it back in the right place. Declarative positioning of models *has* to happen to some degree.

    I don't think this is an intended consequence of the rules as they're written, and I disagree that it's even extant. It seems to me that there's an implied ability to check LoF from any trooper to any potential target at pretty much any particular time.

    Honestly, coming from you that's just weird. You don't even play the game, as per your own admission, though even if you didn't you not considering what a stray hand could do to the game state is proof enough that you don't have practical knowledge of the game.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And you're exaggerating fiercely.

    Stalling is about amounts and excess, what you or your friends do that wastes time isn't the same as someone else does.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Literally everyone I played in N3 did, including multiple satellite tournaments and people who attended the Interplanetario. Trying to act like it's some substantial portion of the playerbase is just deceptive.
     
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Or I check LoF from the perspective of the 3 and carefully move out just far enough to only see one. It's tricky to do so might take me a while as I use mental landmarks on the pattern of the battle mat to get the exact position to just shoot one.

    Or I say "Ey up mate, how far out do I have to move my guy to see the dude but not the chap next to him, here? Bit to the left? Ta."
     
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  18. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    If this happens, I will gladly tell you to please put the model where you think it was and I'll be lenient with AROs and LoF. That's fair play. That's basically "wobbly model". Declarative placement of models has nothing to do with this, stop using potential maybe-once-per-three-games model flips as grounds for rules interpretation, it's hilariously weak.


    We'll have to agree to disagree then.
    No, you're confusing the ability to check from any trooper to potential target (any time you please) with checking LoF/ARO to particular target, after it's movement into new final position. That happens only at Step 6 or whatever it's called. After the model is placed and not before.

    Look at corners all you want but that model will need to be placed in the final spot before I tell you what I think can see him, as he is placed.


    Would you please stop making shit up? I play both in the FLGS and on TTS. It's rare under COVID, but that's beside the point.

    Yea, naw. Totally never seen a mini flipped on the table or sent to the moon by a flick on TTS xD
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Actually in N4 you don't determine your final position or path until you start measuring and pick up your model, so your ideas about movement are wrongheaded.

    Your comments about "I'll say" lead me to believe that you're the kind of guy who's going to insist on being able to take multiple AROs even against very precise positioning that only exposes the active model to 1 trooper.
     
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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Aight. Since points on the table are potential targets (targetless weapons), I can go "This point here? Only 1 of those three troopers watching this corner can see it? Ok." *Puts thumb down on table. Moves active trooper to thumb.* "Ok, you've got an ARO with just that one model. What do you do?"

    At that point any incidental exposure to the other two troopers watching the corner is covered under your comments about "jostling" above. If you think putting a thumb down on the table is unfair, then, well, it's clear that you're trying to make movement as imprecise as possible in the hopes of forcing unnecessary AROs.
     
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