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Is CB trolling?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Zewrath, May 11, 2019.

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  1. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    But why they were able to gain and maintain that support is at odds with the previously published material. That's the core of the issue all along - the internal inconsistency.
    For detailed explanations of how Uprising is inconsistent to be ignored and for @psychoticstorm and @Interruptor Gutier to actually state that there's no inconsistency, no contradiction and that people who think there is are stupid is:
    1. Unsupportable
    2. Insulting to invested customers
    3. Demoralising to (some) factional players
    4. Bad PR
    5. Ignoring that the rulebook and the background exist to sell miniatures
    6. Totally counterproductive
    That this is still coming up over a year after release of Uprising indicates that there's still a problem there.

    Anyway, I'm hyped for Defiance - bring it on!
     
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  2. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Implying your playerbase is illiterate and maybe a little stupid: good natured joke

    Saying your writing is bad because it is incoherent with your own established fluff: insult

    Ok, this is as far as I'm gonna get in this thread as it's obvious we are not getting anywhere and the moderator is obviously biased, so have fun.
     
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  3. Ten Thousand Arrows

    Ten Thousand Arrows Imperial Sage

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    The problem is when this is coming from Corvus Belli's staff. It's completely put me off both the company and their products.
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, the kuge should have been doing a lot of groundwork, and this groundwork should have been mentioned in the fluff.

    Which is somehow all the work of one man.

    Who somehow was not tagged as the common thread among all the various potentially-insurgent kuge by the Kanren, and who was also somehow not tagged by the Yanjing while meeting with all the various mercenary groups face-to-face?

    That's extremely unlikely, just based on the written fluff of the Yanjing and the Kanren. Let alone any of the other fluff.
     
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  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Forgot to reply to this earlier.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with starting by identifying your desired end-state and then writing to get to that point. I've done that a few times, in games I've GM'd (or rather, identified a desired starting-point and wrote things to get to that point, then let the story go from there).

    There is quite a bit wrong with writing things that don't agree with the established setting, regardless of why you wrote them!
     
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  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    It's more a "GM exclusivity" syndrome. He doesn't want anybody else to meddle with "his" world, and becomes unable to delegate.

    On the other end, we can find GW's "shotgun approach". The good point is in the middle, and for me most of the Star Wars expanded universe books (not comic-books, just plain novels, and RPG fluff, and several classic PC games...) was in that position.

    I agree, but sometimes is an extra layer on complication on an already complicated situation: GoT, for example, suffered a drastic change from organic advance ("write the characters, see where they go") to a "this end must be achieved" (cue in the strange, off character sudden developments).
    In this case, Uprising seems, to me, a rush job done between others. To be fair, I think the three books (Uprising, Third Offensive & Daedalus' Fall) where just one book comprised roughly of Third Offensive and Daedalus' Fall, cutting out at least half of TO away. Uprising having been "improvised" to fill blanks and generate a more unstable Human Sphere that would, in theory, make the CA's victories in Paradiso during TO more believable.
     
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  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Indeed, but it is not what I said, you automatically filled the gaps of me saying if you do not understand the setting as it is written it is not the writers fault to me saying that the readers are too stupid to understand the background, subtle difference, people do not need to be stupid to not understand, or accept, the background lore, but people insisting IS would never react in the way they did when all their background says they will and that Yu Jing or any other power would dare to defy concilium when the background clearly state nobody does (and frankly as I have said many times in this thread PanO gave back to Yu Jing all their gains from the second Neo Colonial wars because Concilium said so) is a clear misunderstanding of the already established lore as is the difference of power level between PanO and Yu Jing, yes, they are the second power, by far in comparison to everybody else, yes they have aspirations and can headlock with PanO in military and diplomatic levels (especially in the first Neo Colonial wars were PanO was essentially demilitarised) but on a fully awaken and active PanO like now they need to be more subtle and crafty, choosing to not have two wars at the same time was a wise decision for Yu Jing.

    To recap I never said that people not liking uprising were stupid, I said they did not understand some key elements of the background especially how powerful Consilium really is.

    As I said this is what you chose to make out of a line in a podcast and some good natured jokes, why you choose the interpretation that leads to the company insulting you instead of any other option is beyond me.

    It was not the work of one man, one man was the messenger, now why they would not track the insignificant "messenger boy" going to the various ordinary routines of contacting corporations for deals, mercenary companies to do corporation things like suppressing strikes on the Humanity's edge (Ikari) and other ordinary tasks? probably it is why they chose him, remember he was not the mastermind, he was the messenger and one chosen because of how ordinary and insignificant he was, the other background shows how meticulously and secretive Kuge were in placing key personnel, in the correct places, how to make the deals seem like other unrelated things "oh make a show showing how bad we are treated it is trending and you will make money from us and from the drama, (not saying you we are going to capitalise it to gain PanO population support in an upcoming revolt you do not know about)", Oh the emperor is after all an old man we need to make some medical exams (not that we would ever clone his cube or something)".

    Yes, Yu Jing Intelligence did not get it, but it is nothing that cannot be justified by been complacent in the loyalty of the Japanese (they gave them much autonomy after all to lure them back) and simple assassinations on low level investigators who may had found a thing or two, sure it could have said the major ninja clans were extra busy, but it can be also assumed.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @psychoticstorm the problem with a setting this close to reality is that it will be scrutinized harder and there will be actual facts and sciences that can be checked. The benefit is that there are vast amount of information that the writer can avail themselves of. (Analogous to that they don't have to invent the wheel, but instead can learn how a tyre is made - on the other hand people will criticize it if they do in fact use wheels inatead of tyres)

    Here's the problem with the messenger boy analogy: humans don't work like that. The agents might not have been monitoring the Shasvaasti messenger, but they were monitoring the vast number of people they got in contact with and big data algorithms would've screamed out the name long before one of the large number of politicians made a mistake (or tried to make use of the information for personal gains).
    To be blunt, it's a story that only works in a medieval setting. Or 40K, which is a medieval setting in space.
     
  9. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    And President Trump wrote a book about how to make a deal. Doesn't make him the best buisnessman in the world ... Or I shall star writing a book called "Why I shall be supreme leader of the world". :-)

    And stomping a political protest is not really what happen in Tibet and Uyghur ... more like erasing a whole population and its cultural specificities to replace them with more docile citizens. And what happenned in Syria was more than just a political protest ... All this just before us. And we don't stop to make buisness with China because of that. So Yu Jing could belive they could supress this uprising and face the international pressure.

    I don't claim that in the Infinity setting the Japanese Uprising had to succed. I just say it is plausible and consistent with the already writtend background that I have readen. And I like the way the story was written with Japanese citizen and their nationalist feelings being manipulated by their elite Kuge to serve their best interest. Sounds very cynical, realistic and entertaining to me.

    But I understand that you may not like this story. Find it doesn't portray what you would expect. Just like Game of Throne last season for exemple. I just say it is consistent enough for me.
     
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  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Trump didn't write the Art of the Deal, that was done by a ghostwriter.



    You're missing the point there. The point is you do it quietly, you don't brag about it, you don't broadcast it like PyschoCrane you censor that shit as hard as you can. You deny it at every step. That's how China does it in reality. They don't declare fire and brimstone like PsychoCrane, they go in and ruthlessly do the job and then either blame somebody else or pretend it never happened.

    Just like Turkey and the Armenians

    [​IMG]

    Whether or not Uprising should've succeeded is immaterial what's the bigger issue is that Yu Jing are portrayed as incompetent Stupid Evil. That's what draws the most criticism to Gutier's quality of writing.
     
    #670 Triumph, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  11. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I'll bite. Where in "all their background" does it say that they will act the way they did?

    You criticise us as having "head-cannoned that it should have never happened" and countless times we've pointed you at the material that describes IS and their fluff. Our criticisms are not that YJ backed down from the Concillium. That all makes sense given the relative power level, and frankly even if they were at a lower level than Pan O it would still make sense as YJ would be fighting PanO at the same time. The issue is that Yu Jing did not act in the way that Yu Jing are described up to that point.

    You've head-cannoned that maybe the entire intelligence operation of the state empire was so incompetent that it didn't notice all the propaganda being used on its own populace to the extent that they all supported the rebels during the Uprising. If that propaganda/indoctrination reached every citizen how could it possibly have not come to the notice of any intelligence operative? It must've been on every Maya channel or news service out there to have that kind of reach!

    So, if we're supposed to believe in the world that is being portrayed what are we supposed to take from this:
    1. YJ intelligence services seemed to miss all the signs and didn't respond in the way their teachings/training require and this is a bit odd... perhaps some other forces were at work?
    2. YJ intelligence services are so incompetent they somehow didn't know something known by an entire nation of their own people... and by implication the YJ background needs updating to reflect this incompetence
    3. YJ intelligence services are so incompetent they somehow didn't know something known by an entire nation of their own people... but mostly this is just because the whole thing was a bit rushed/not very well executed
    In a nutshell I think we're in a position now where a good number of Yu Jing players are still annoyed at 2 and actually hoping for 3 (as that's an improvement that doesn't devalue their investment in the faction) but really as developers of the game you probably should've been aiming for 1 if you found you needed to make them look incompetent (I'd argue there were better ways of delivering the Uprising but that's a different post).

    Also, this. I linked you the text from the CB website about Pan O and YJ in my last post where it outlines their relative power levels. It implies they are close to equal with YJ slightly behind but on an upward trend. You can head-cannon what you like to put Pan O further ahead but that's not what your own material says.

    P.S. Feels rubbish when people keep accusing you of head-cannoning things away and in that sense I apologise for doing the same but it seemed like the best way of showing how that comment had probably come across to the other players reading it on here.
     
  12. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    @Triumph believe it or not, I saw a report on China expension last month where a retired Chinese general was gloating about how China will have world strongest army in a few years and be able to subdue every country.

    I can see an imperial agent glauting about how they suppressed the insurrection. And who was this psycho crane quote intended for ? To the people he want to frighten to death.

    Bashar's troop were doing exactly this and bashar himself deny on every TV broadcast that the army committed any warcrime. Two messages intended at two different audience.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Except that frightening people to death doesn't work in a situation like that.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Boasting you have a strong military =/= admitting you are conducting genocide/warcrimes/other horrid stuff. China absolutely censors the living shit out of anything that doesn't paint them in a good light.

    Yeah well there's your problem good old PsychoCrane was doing his fire and brimstone spiel to a WarCor. Admitting that you are in the process of doing war crimes to journalists is kinda the opposite of what he's supposed to do and is definitely the exact opposite of what China is known for doing right now. What he should be doing is making the warcor disappear and cover up his war crimes or at least pretend he's not doing them. The evil villain speech from PsychoCrane would've been alot easier to resolve if it was followed by shooting the WarCor in the face and melting his body down with nanomachines or something to hide the evidence.

    I don't know if you're late to the party Marduck but Uprising has been broken down extensively and the general conclusion was it really doesn't make much sense. The whole idea was interesting but unfortunately Gutier did not have the talent to make it play out mechanically in a way that actually worked from a narrative stand point. In his defense given that CB wanted this as a surprise marketing gimmick, and that constraining the story to a very short period of time because they had another book/plot movement releasing close after it, it was going to be very difficult to make it play out in a way that just wasn't total nonsense. Basically the whole story arc was rushed and it hurt it alot.

    On the other hand, Gutier really should've just known better about some of this stuff like PsychoCrane. That's just textbook dumb, shouldn't have hit print at all.


    The whole idea is you don't want to do that because it actually screws you over the most.

    Take ISIS and islamic terrorism in western countries. The whole goal of terrorist activities like that is to try to marginalise islam in western countries, not protect it. The terrorists want the foreigners to hate islam, to pick on them, vilify them because it creates more radicalised individuals who will travel to join ISIS. Any attack on the individuals that are not directly but simply culturally associated with the insurgents does nothing but help the insurgents by driving more potential recruits to them.

    To go to the extreme, if France in response to the various attacks they've suffered declared that Islam was banned, that nobody could worship islam in the country under pain of imprisonment/death/fines etc they've done the worse thing they possibly could. They've gone and said to a big group of people "you are now our enemies", even to those that aren't.

    In PsychoCrane's case with the threats of leveling cities and filling mass graves with Japanese the message he actually spreads is "I'm going to kill you, your only hope is joining the insurgents to fight back." And that is the exact thing @Section9 is trying to pound into everyone's head that no sane super power behaves that way when it comes to fighting insurgents. The strategy used is to make the public fear the insurgents, that they are bad people, troublemakers, dangerous and wild individuals, and it is the State, the government who are the good guys who will maintain law and order. They do everything possible to avoid creating more insurgents by chasing normal citizens into their arms.
     
    #674 Triumph, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup. And the way to make that happen anyway would have been to present what PsychoCrane did as a sort of Abu Ghraib situation - have the ISS and YJ higher ups facepalming, but meanwhile the cat's out of the bag and the Japanese are like "fuck no, we gotta fight back or these assholes are gonna kill us."

    Instead the YJ Emperor is presented as being completely onboard with the ethnic cleansing. And the worry is that the writers are in Dunning-Kruger territory as to why that's a problem.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As a minor note (and I actually hate that we're discussing Uprising - again!), Uprising would've been a lot more believable if it was mainly the machinations of Pan-O rather than this single Shasvaasti and some small help from the Kuge. For Tiny JSA to be nurtured into a (totally not gonna backfire in an epic display of authoritarianism) pawn of Pan-O makes sense, but for Pan-O to have it more or less landed in their laps is... wut?
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Was he revealed to be a Shasvastii in DF?
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not that I am aware of.
    I'm under the illusion that it was revealed to be Victor Messer, wasn't it?
     
  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Like I've said since Uprising was announced: I do not have a problem with the Uprising happening. I have a very large problem with how it was presented.


    You know that your 'supposedly anonymized' credit card info can be backtracked to reveal who you are with little effort today, right?

    Having one person making all the contacts for getting support is a very poor idea today, let alone in 175 years worth of AI development and Big Data analysis. We tracked down Bin Laden via his one and only messenger, FFS, and that was 10 years before Uprising was released.


    That's the thing, PS, if you're doing major setting changes like the Uprising, you need to sell that it could have happened to the readers. mention some low level investigators getting killed, mention the major ninja clans being extra busy.

    As it is, the suspension of disbelief for the Japanese to successfully rebel has not been earned.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That was the B4ckd00r man. Afaik he was not the Gray Man (Who i'm guessing is instead Gutier's GMPC or something).
     
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