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Is CB trolling?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Zewrath, May 11, 2019.

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  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yes, I play USARF, so I know all about infiltrators deploying across the center line. But it's more valuable to use infiltrators that can be used for both purposes (i.e. not infiltrating Grunts) to actually win you the mission.



    ...and again you avoid the question. My thought process isn't restricted to that, I just wanted to see if you were constitutionally capable of saying "CB should change profile X." You are apparently not. I don't know how you expect us to take you seriously when you think that saying "the game could be better in x way" is verboten and disrespectful to our glorious CB overlords.
     
    #521 Hecaton, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  2. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Dude, out of IA this statement made me feel il xD. I can accept that ISS can be a bit monopolized by the kuang shi core but you can't say Vanilla Yu Jing is simple
     
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  3. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Armor is overcosted is just the summary of the argument "the proportional increase of survivability as a ratio of the amount of ARM a unit has is not high enough to justify the cost" and "the best way to survive is to win f2f rolls, so having more ARM isn't as efficient as having Mimetism or ODD, for example."

    The reason it has dropped into four words is because the debate has been fleshed out a ton of times and the ARM being overcosted for its utility is a matter of fact rather than of debate.
     
  4. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    I mean, among every single vanilla faction, Yu Jing is still the simplest IMO.
     
  5. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Dude we have tons of camos, warbands odd porfiles like the kanren that more or less work. Don't know but i think we can do different styles of list (spam + remotes, semi IA lists or heavy camo lists) and tactics and we have almost 90% of the tricks that human factions have. And no we aren't more simple that pano vanilla.
     
  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Any PanO diplomat with two connected brain-cells would raise an eyebrow and would make a fuss about it, Yu Jing are not stupid.

    No, I just remain on my previous statement, unfortunately I do not trust you to have such conversation in good faith and your continuous stance does nothing to disprove me, but I will still do my best to give you the best answers on how to pass your feedback in a correct and effective way.

    The point is that the debate is, from what I observe, mostly on armour in general and not on the myriad questions regarding it and definitely not in the tires of armour, in any case it was an example given for feedback, not an intention to start a debate at it.
     
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  7. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    I'd still say Vanilla PanO is more complex, if even just by a little, since their G:Sync units open up a whole new box of roaches for discussion alone in their use. And this is before delving into the Joan sectorial and the use of some of the new Varuna units, what with the wide variety of Echo-Bravo loadouts and the Zulu-Cobra being able to cover any of at least 4 roles based on which profile you take, from ARO to gunfighter, from specialist to safety Lieutenant.

    Having tons of camo or warbands does not immediately imply complexity in my books, nor does having a wide range of play styles.

    The main reason I claim Yu Jing is simple as a faction is because in Yu Jing, most units are simple to understand and grasp both as a separate concept and within a list:

    Barring perhaps only the Kanren, the vast majority of Yu Jing units are relatively simple to understand IMO. It doesn't take a genius to see the values inherent in the Rui Shi and the Lu Duan, nor does it take a particularly adept eye to see the value of a Guilang or a Tiger Soldier. It also doesn't take particularly long to fully understand what is it that a Hsien or a Mowang does best, etc. etc.

    In fact, I do believe one of Yu Jings main strengths is the simplicity of it's units: the more complex a unit or combination of units is, the more liable you are to make mistakes by simple human error of risking overthinking stuff. Yu Jing dodges this issue by not having much to overthink, as its units have most of what you must know laid bare ( And some units, like our Holo2 units and the Guilang, have passive aspects to them that further decrease the amount of stuff you have to think about, what with the Guilang simplifying SK vs SK combat with it's MSV1 and our Holo2 units being rather limited in what other units they can disguise as with their Holoechos, meaning you can better focus on their deployment and which profile to leave on display for your opponent. ), which is further aided by how many toolbox units are within the faction.

    What I'm getting at here is that because of how simple in concept and loadout the units Yu Jing has are, it's a lot easier to make use of said units without accidentally making a slip up or crack in their limits.
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    So you refuse to admit that there are any valid criticisms of CB's published content?

    Again, what's an example of a profile you think is undertuned? What's an example of a profile you think is overtuned? Or do you think those questions are invalid due to CB being a morally perfect authority beyond reproach?



    You're failing to comprehend the argument. "Global warming is a problem" is still true even if there's one dude in Greenland who's ecstatic that more natural resources on his land are uncovered by a retreating ice sheet. It's pointing out a general trend.
     
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  9. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    And that's actually why it was such a great example. Far too many people who defend CB on everything don't actually read the arguments and critically think about them -- they just frame the opposite side as if they don't have any real arguments to make and handwave away their points by turning them into quips instead of engaging.

    And that's a huge problem. Too much of the community believes that CB is/should be immune to any/all criticism.
     
  10. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    On the other hand, invading Yu-Jing sovereign space and all the other Uprising shit is totally Ok and nobody should raise half an eyebrow in universe because CB can't do no wrong, right? But Yu Jing funding fishmen terroristd in what should be a Cold War analogue is too much?

    Your doublethinking would make the Ministry of Truth proud
     
    #530 Benkei, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @Hecaton no, but most criticism is done on a bad, non productive way, that will never get a grip because of the way it is been done.

    As it has been said before we rarely see criticism or solutions and mostly we see complains and opinions expressed in a bad way, it is never helpful, especially if we agree and try to push a change in this direction, such posts and behaviour simply undermines our attempts.

    @Benkei Well Yu Jing could simply not exist given how bad they lost the second Neocolonial wars, but if you try to argue an internally consistent fictional universe with present day conceptions of politics, power levels and realism then I cannot sway your opinion.

    Libertos are supplied from Yu Jing to inconvenience PanOcenia not to give them a reason to start some conflict somewhere, having demonstrably more would give PanO a reason to make some political move that would most probably make them lose face and it is not worth it.
     
  12. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    And with faults on both sides, far too many critics seem to have far too much faith in their own arguments and at times seem to be stating that they know the game and where it’s intended to go better than the designers of it.

    Speaking personally, am I too knee jerk in defending the game? Sure, that’s a fair criticism. Are many of the critics too knee jerk to denigrate the people behind a game those same critics profess to enjoy? I’ll leave you to decide.
     
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  13. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the universe is internally consistent, but I'm positive their politics and warfare are strongly based on present day politics and warfare, so being that we have been given absolutely no information about how they are different, yes, I'm gonna judge the fluff with a basis in modern day politics, else it makes no sense (flash news: it still makes no sense)

    But correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is PanO is so far ahead of Yu Jing (you know, the supposed other hyperpotence, the threat to PanO's prevalence, etc...) they can fuckin invade Yu Jing's territory without any consequences whatsoever but Yu Jing can't use some more fishmen who, by the way, WORK FOR EVERY HUMAN FACTION? I wonder how Yu Jing does even exist

    Yeah, great fluff


    And by the way, criticism about the way CB manages YJ has been given loads of time in a positive and estructured manner, and it amounted to nothing; meanwhile, PanO endless (and justified) whining got them the right to have 4 Sectorials (double Yu Ying's), awesome new things, 2 Sectorial reworks, at least 1 unit rework (Bolts) and I'm pretty sure Neoterra is gonna be reworked this year too. Yu Jing got one Sectorial wiped away and then received an underwhelming new one and fluff depicting them as evil AND stupid. None of those problems have been resolved, so it's no wonder they resurface time and again because people are still pretty pissed (or they have just moved to other factions or games)

    It's gonna happen for Tohaa players too, and you don't need a crystal ball to figure that out.
     
    #533 Benkei, Jun 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think that a big part of the game's current round of problems is because the messaging that filters through you and people like you to CB doesn't communicate what the actual problems are.

    Yeah, that's bull. Those polish ex-WarCors offered a "solution." People offer solutions to observed problems here all the time - it just seems that the disagreements rest on not what solution to implement, but rather whether or not problems are problems to begin with.
     
  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    You've got it exactly wrong. As both @psychoticstorm and @ijw have specifically noted, they have to work even harder to make sure CB understands that, under all the sound and fury of forum users who seem likely to never be placated, much less satisfied or happy, there are actual issues to be addressed. The generally poor way criticism is communicated, i.e. with insults and potshots at CB and their team, has been mentioned to actively harm the cause critics so loudly profess to have.

    Regarding solutions, people offering them for situations where they don't, won't and can't have all of the needed information and taking umbrage when those suggested solutions aren't taken on board immediately and 100% is a fool's errand. Anyone saying otherwise is selling something.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @A Mão Esquerda so Bostria's allowed to mock and taunt the playerbase on Twitter but if any of us lowly untermenschen think tournabout's fair play we're wrong?
     
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  17. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I don't think the way CB handles their social media is always very good, but angrily blasting them here isn't productive.
     
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  18. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Couple things. In the fluff PanO is the only hyper power. Yu jing is second place and by a large margin. PanO would be like modern day USA, Russia, or China. They more or less can get away with doing whatever they want. Yu Jing would be like the Ukraine.
    Please tell me you dont actually believe forum whining got the changes to PanO. $$$ is what got those things. Pano is I believe the #1 selling faction, nomads is I believe #2. Of course the #1 is gonna get what seems like more toys and cooler toys. They are proven sellers and these guys are a business first so that makes sense. I doubt CB has weekly or monthly meetings and go alright guys what are people on the forum saying we should do with our game and business??
     
  19. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Honestly it sucks when they do that because I dont think they realize how overly sensitive people can be and dont always do as good of a job taking it as dishing it out. But the truth of the matter is in all honesty yeah they can do that because it's their game and their forum. All we can do is vote with our wallets. They could ban all of the regular people who bash on them from the forums and people would forget all about it in 2 weeks and continue playing the game and buying the models.
     
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  20. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Hmmm... let’s see... someone who’s attempting to be funny (if perhaps falling short of the mark) versus who simply sounds bitter and aggrieved at every turn and who never seems to have anything good to say about the game or the people staffing the company making, and conveying that bitterness in ofttimes charged language while cloaked in anonymity and without any self reflection, sense of scale and proportion, or humor? Yes, I would say there’s a vast difference.
     
    Dragonstriker likes this.
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