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Is CB trolling?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Zewrath, May 11, 2019.

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  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Local meta, maybe. Play style, nah. Jank is jank, no matter who runs it. I disagree with your statement.
     
  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Niche models have their uses. There will always be a meta, but there is live outside that meta.
     
  3. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    What the actual fuck, thats like a laundry list of all the best shit in the game, stuck to an engineer.

    I can see why some people prefer the budget line trooper version, but honestly I can't see why anyone would consider this bad.

    Moving from the very off topic to the mildly off topic, you guys are forgetting the truly important thing - that the Red Fury is just as bad as the fuckin SMG in terms of overoptimization. Lose 1 DMG, gain blessed shock ammo, and then pay bugger all SWC? Yeah sign me up for that
     
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  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, the Caliban. Yeah, that's a really good profile.

    The only thing wrong with the Caliban is that the engineer profile may be competing with a couple others for the AVA.
     
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  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    You can disagree, but as this thread is evident all these things are subjective and important to each players understanding of the game and the performance of units, play style in particular dictates the performance of certain skills, an infiltrating specialist is thought differently when used safely for the objectives and when used to risk and deploy just outside of the enemies deployment zone to hunt down order pool generators and the performance and value of the Infiltration skill changes drastically.
     
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  6. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Bit of a stupid side-note here:

    We're over half-way there to overtaking the Invincible Army Pre-Mortem post here. Ain't that neat.
     
  7. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    And
    In response to:
    I think you're missing the point that Hecaton is making. People can have opinions and these are indeed subjective with a dependency on local meta and playstyle. However, units can also be objectively bad (or good). Maths and probability give you an objective result that is more valuable than anecdotal commentary about any one individual's experience that will be heavily skewed by human psychology. Those anecdotes should steer the investigation of the data rather than being considered valued data in and of themselves.

    The points calculator is flawed as anything other than a starting point for assigning a cost to use things as it doesn't account for how effects combine.

    ODD skews combat odds far more than the same cost of BS increase but it does so on a slightly different axis that depends on what is being attacked. Particularly once you upgrade it to TO Camo for the surprise penalty or range bands that can totally deny many opponents any return shots. More significant is if ODD is added to something with high armour as the best anti-armour units aren't always the ones with MSV to counter the ODD.

    There's a commonly used stat in balancing many games, Time To Die. To make a unit more survivable you want to make it harder to hit or tougher to hurt. Do both and the effects multiply while the costs to achieve that are additive in a calculator such as the one used at CB. That's basic maths/game design and no amount of local meta is going to make that fact go away.

    Now, a better question to ask would be "do bad/inefficient units have a place in the game and if so how do you make them desirable to players"?
     
    #487 BenMoss, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  8. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Inefficient units will still get taken a lot if they provide a unique capability that the army is otherwise lacking, so long as the net efficiency of the list remains above a certain threshold.
     
  9. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Another question to ask is "bad at what". Some of the perceived inefficiency stems from people trying to put a square unit into a round hole. Identifying the shape of any given unit is one thing. Another is to count how many holes it can fit into. First allows us to properly assess units' capabilities, second - judge how useful they are.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This thread isn't proving anything. "People on the forum say so" isn't really a valid source. Different units are more optimal than others for a given situation.

    Are you trying to say that the value of Infiltration changes based off of player skill? That's certainly true. I mean if you intelligently use your camouflaged infiltrators to complete the scenario objectives vs. yolo infiltrating them deep into the enemy's board half and getting them all killed, yeah, you'll find that infiltrators are more useful to you. But that's not playstyle, that's skill level.

    What elements within Infinity do you think are too powerful and could use a nerf? What elements are underpowered and could use a buff?
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Some of those roles are crap, though. Sometimes you need something to fill a round hole (hee hee) and your faction is scattered with units that fill square holes, and the tournament missions are only really asking for units that fill round holes.

    "Cheap infiltrating camo specialist" is something that's ideally filled by a unit like a Foxtrot, Zero, or Hunzakut, but a lot of factions make do with other things since you need some sort of upfield specialists to have a chance at a lot of missions. "Expensive infiltrating camo specialist" is something that nobody wants but will use if they have to (Malignos etc).
     
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  12. CAnon

    CAnon Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
    And failing on WIP 13/14 costs you lots of orders, and potentially points and/or entire units besides.
    That's why you leave all your Engineering to Clockmakers/Dr. Worm/Haidao/Kurgats, etc.
    I'm surprised I need to tell you this, Section. This is, like, elementary stuff.

    As for all the people saying that they use them for button pushing - I've already addressed this, i'd rather not have to repeat myself.
    For the last time, if I need a midfield specialist, i'll use a dedicated midfield specialist.
    All the units i've mentioned are too bloated in cost relative to Zhensha/Shrouded/Zeros/etc.
    If I need an Engineer, i'll use a better Engineer (who can always make a turn 3 dash for the objectives once the board's more clear, if absolutely necessary).

    Having a unit making a half-hearted attempt at both is the worst of both worlds.
     
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  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    That is true, but "cheap infiltrating camo specialist", etc. is actually a pretty narrow description. When I talk about unit roles I'm thinking "midfield specialist", "hammer", "anvil", "plan B", "secondary attack piece", "speed bump", "field support", etc. My units might fit one or more of these, or none, but there are less useless units than they were a few years back. But you're right that current mission enviroment makes some unit/list types more useful. This problem is actually less pronouced than it was before, but it's still there. It means that expensive units have to achieve more to make them worthwile, but - again - this depends a lot on player' correctly assessing what his units are capable of.

    Let's discuss some really elementary stuff.

    Most specialists in the game are WIP 13/14. It's well worth sacrificing a point of WIP to get some forward deployment skills. There's a reason we all value infiltrating camo specialist so highly. This holds true regardless if applied to Engineers, Docs, or general specialists. Keeping your specialist in DZ can be consider "safe" only until it's time to actually do something. Yes, you can repair or heal using Servant bots, but they have a 100% chance of needing more orders to reach its target than the Engineer already in the midfield - or one advancing with a fireteam - and it's quite possible they'll be shot at on their way in. Sure, Servants are small and have Mimetism, but they're fragile and break down if someone looks at them funny.

    Regarding unit cost - what you call "bloat", or "half-hearted attempt at both" is called a toolbox. It can be equipped well or poorly for its tasks, but it's not a bad concept in itself. A Tomcat might not be as good a repairman as a Clockmaker, but the latter can't enter the table behind a flanking Bulleteer and burn down its ODD, can't quickly climb to a rooftop to hunt down some pesky ARO trooper, has zero chance of Immobilizing enemy TAG with a single shot. Medchanoid is a (barely) better Engineer than Caliban, but it doesn't have Stealth, large DTW, access to special ammo, or the ability to gain more wounds. Shrouded might be cheaper than Malignos, but you have a better chance of actually surprising your opponent with the latter, especially if he's adept at using Sensor/Sniffer nets and going after your camo. Cheapness means that while your unit might be good at one task, it might come up short when you'll need it to do anything else. Same goes for specialization and excellence in one field - it can come with a list of drawbacks, ask any PanO player how the faction looked like a year or two back.
     
    #493 Stiopa, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  14. smog

    smog Well-Known Member
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    I hadn’t even considered that the caliban was a “sub optimal” choice as a forward deploying specialist compared to seed soldiers. Because seed soldiers can’t crit someone on a 14 in cc while imposing surprise attack and coming out of the combat with 3 wounds. The “engineer” part is just icing on the cake for the cheapest profile imo.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's not a narrow description when it's an ideal unit to complete a good amount of mission objectives in the ITS system. You win by scoring more points than the other guy, to paraphrase John Madden. The most important pieces are the ones that let you score those points efficiently. So if you want to call it a "midfield specialist," that's fine, but a midfield specialist who is also cheap and has a camo state to evade being shot is incredibly well-suited for its job, to talk about some *really* elementary stuff. All this stuff about "plan B" and "field support" is just stuff you've made up.

    Armies with plentiful access to cheap camo state infiltrating specialists have a distinct advantage over those who don't in many missions. That's not to say that a sectorial can't have other things to make up the shortfall, but if you play, say, USARF, and you say "Foxtrots don't fit my playstyle," you're just being wrongheaded, and in most missions will be playing at a distinct disadvantage.
     
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  16. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I agree that camo units, especially cheap ones, fit the description best. But starting with a broader description allows me to consider all available options. Let's say I'm constructing an Acon list; there's a number of units I can either deploy in the midfield, or get there fast; Nagas, Dart, Peacemakers, Akalis, Singh, Montesa. Four of those choices have a specialist option. The most obvious one would be Naga KHD (or FO, if I'm going against a low tech army), but if I'm set from the get go on taking them, I'm narrowing my options. It might be that instead of direct approach of saturating the middle with camo supported by Peacemakers I'd be better off with taking a pair of Akalis and Montesa Paramedic, which would allow me to react to enemy deployment and choose my battles to a greater degree.

    And about me "making stuff up" - you can believe what you want. I have my way of approaching the game, and I'm happy with it. It's not The One True Way to play, but it works for me.
     
    #496 Stiopa, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  17. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    And I do want people to admit that it was CB's mistake about Krit's profile leak.

    The profile was wrongly introduced (Using Raiden IIRC), and it was not altered by constant 'Salts' poured upon it.
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Yeah, because the 5% difference between a Caliban and Dr. Worm is equal to the number of Orders needed to advance...
     
  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I'm sorry but who are you and what position are you in to assert such a condescending tone to a seasoned player like Section?

    Your assertions are not only wrong but shockingly out of touch with how this game functions as a whole. Also, Kurgat Engineer.. really?
     
  20. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    @barakiel : I always love your feedback, be it here on the forum or on podcast. Very useful stuff. And you have a point here that very often you are going to engage people in th 20-40 cm (I play cm) rangeband and that makes a difference between combi and SMG.

    But on the other hand, engagement in the 0-20 cm is also very common, especially on agressive model when the opponent is hidding, and the difference between a Rifle and a Combi is like 1 pts (compare the Metro and Keisotsu for exemple) and you don't get this extra armo type. In comparison, if you compare the bounty hunter SMG profil to the combi it's 4 pts cheaper (and get an akrylat kanon). I guess a 1 pts difference would be ok. But 4 pts is a bargain ...

    And it's even more a bargain when talking about a model that is not supposed to do that much shooting, except in the last turn, in suppresive fire as a speedbupper. And that's exactly what the bounty hunter is (without a special weapon like wniper or red fury), a cheerleader and an expendable ressource in the last turns. Same goes for the brawler Assault Hacker or the Nox hacker. You probably not taking these guys for shooting and you probably have other guys with 20-40 cm weapons.

    Also, one could argue that on some aggressive camo model like Dart, Zencha or even the Cube Jagger or Bashibazouk the 0-20 cm rangeband is going to be used more often that the 20-40 cm range. So having an SMG with special amunitions is stronger than just a combi.

    And is the 3 or 4 pts difference with a boarding shotgun on the same profil justified ? You trade one burst for a template and +1 damage (you could argue +3 because you ignore cover, but very often you can catch the oponent out of cover with these guys). The template is good, especialy when you are attacking the ennemy DZ. But is it better than +1 dice ? I think at least half the time I would rather have a +1 burst and AP or Shock on these models. A 1 pts difference would make more sense to me.

    To wrap it up :
    - You want your cheerleader as cheap as possible and the SMG drops the price of a model too low imho
    - It's probably as good or even better to have a SMG rather than a Combi or even a Boarding on some models

    For these two reasons, I am of the opinion SMG point formula as it is right now is not reflecting the real usefullness of a SMG. It shouldn't be such a bargain compared to a combi or shotgun.


    Looking forward to read if you feel different ...

    PS : My TV is fine where it is. Nobody stole it. And I don't feel angry at anyone. Peace and love everyone. :heart:
     
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