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Is CB trolling?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Zewrath, May 11, 2019.

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  1. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    It was no longer used since that post, so I would not call it double standard, but a correction of a previously unfortunate choice (that of joking with your customers at the expense of a part of your customers, which never ends well).

    Those do not make a choice between shock & other ammo, they add shock to all ammo they shoot. I said "shock or ammo" ;)
     
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  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    True, I was thinking at the same time both MML2 and multi rifles to write in the same example and merged everything, in my defence it was really late in the night.

    @Hecaton yes, they are a thing and they are countered like everything else, the point of the discussion was that two opposing points of view in the gameplay can and will produce two different viewpoints on the same thing(s), I think we have established that.

    @Ten Thousand Arrows it should not be, but what was a well intended joke got so much carried away that we better avoid it and its memes for the good of everybody.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's possible for those points of view to be of unequal validity, however.
     
  4. Ten Thousand Arrows

    Ten Thousand Arrows Imperial Sage

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    I'm genuinely quite disturbed at the blatant censorship. Bostria's the company face, banning jokes referencing a joke that he made absolutely stinks of corporate damage control. Uprising was a really tough time to be a new vanilla Yu Jing player just starting Infinity, and in all honesty the way the staff handled it shouldn't be quickly forgotten. 1520403335101.jpg
     
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  5. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    People cried about it being "insensitive". Seems to me that they aren't going to say things like that in the future and if it's insensitive for them to say, it's not good for others to say. If people can't take the joke, no joke allowed. Not how I'd approach it, but if that's how they want to do it...

    :joy::joy: Oh Hecaton, continue to never change. :joy::joy:
     
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Jesus you've got some conspiracy theories running. You know, apart from the fact that I accepted his first point he brought up as a good start and asked for him to continue to list the rest of them. I even offered some low hanging fruit that really we should all be on the same page with bait 'n' switching shikamis was probably a mistake.

    I am fully willing to be convinced, you just gotta actually come to the table instead of spouting party lines all the time.


    I don't know about you but for me and I'm guessing many others by the responses in this thread that qualifies as a terrible profile. To paraphrase a conversation I had tonight, the Guijia is terrible because he's too expensive and does the same job other people do better. Krit is terrible because he's too expensive and does a job nobody fuckin' asked him to do in the first place.


    Yeah that's completely wrong. We've seen models repeatedly get random discounts both in their inception, such as Securitate, they do not match up for their statline and gear, to reworks where models such as Bolts and Hospitalers get discounted without a change to their statline. We see other hand adjusted discounts, like Zuyongs and Santiagos get SWC discounts on their weapons just because. Celestial Guards get smoke grenade launchers for free while other light infantry get charged 1pt for smoke grenade launchers.

    Want more examples of hand adjusted points? Karakuri paid points for their Total Immunity change. Sun Tze got his for free when every other model got charged for it. Not that I'm complaining about that mind you Sun Tze needed a bit of a buff to compete with Daoying. How did McMurrough gain Berserk, downgrade his impetuous, and still pay less points than the other dogs do for his Total Immunity change?

    CB can and do hand out freebies when they feel like it.


    That's a pretty simple answer people wish that if he's gonna get saddled with crap gear and stats that he doesn't synergise well with, that he doesn't get charged for them or at least not charged full price.

    He's built to support a link team. You don't want tonnes of trash on him like e/mitters and automedkits, extra CC and stupid bullshit you're really not gonna use. He wants to be cheap, hanging around the back of the link, there if you need him and not a points burden if you don't. Think Haidao KHD. You won't need him every game, but if you roll into Ariadna where he's pointless it's not a huge deal to have him at the back of the link and only costing 26pts. Krit is bloated through the roof at 39.

    He's not a pointman, you're not going to get much mileage out of him in your average game. A model like Tai Sheng? She can justify splurging a few extra points on stuff. Courage? Sure, whatever. Paying for an upgraded pistol and grenades? Fine, ok. 2 Extra points of CC? Well if it comes with the +1BS I guess I can suck it up. You can justify these expenses on a model like that because she's gonna be doing alot of work that Krit frankly isn't.
     
    #206 Triumph, May 14, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    "Bannable offense"? When was the last time someone got banned on these forums for anything short of a complete and total meltdown?
     
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  8. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I suppose since both views on a preferred gameplay are subjective, one is more valid than the other depending who you ask and what gameplay they prefer.

    Honestly if the community did not have a meltdown over such memes it would probably be allowed, they do though so better leave it alone, I do not think its "BANNABLE" myself, but better to be avoided, repeated insistence for trolling thought could have repercussions.
     
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  9. BenMoss

    BenMoss Well-Known Member

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    Ok, lets go back a bit. You asked what we'd do with him. There are a few moving parts here, firstly he has a sculpt already and that model is carrying a pair of heavy pistols and a chain colt, secondly we have his background blurb that is apparently the starting point for the normal process.

    "Who is Krit Kokram? He’s a combat engineer, specialist, and a leader always at the vanguard of the Zúyŏng Invincibles. This is what his military record says. But, apart from this record, little to no information can be found on him. This is Krit Kokram nowadays, a Zúyŏng specialist who shares with a dead man the fascination with big guns and the thuggish demeanor of the Thai gangsters from Batta Racha."

    What are the things from that description we can make use of:
    • "combat engineer" -> engineer (+D-charges?)
    • "specialist" -> listed separately so that's hacker, FO, paramedic, doctor of chain of command
    • "leader" -> NCO, chain of command, LT2, tactical awareness
    • "vanguard" -> should have some reason to be on the front line of the link in certain situations
    • "of the zuyong invincibles" -> wildcard or zuyong
    • "little to no information"&"shares with a dead man" -> hacker, impersonation or holoprojector L1
    • "big guns" -> guns should be heavy
    • "thai gangster" -> probably emphasis on pistols, possibly some CC/MA but not necessarily
    So what can we make from that?

    There's a clear potential for ticking the specialist box along with his shady past and impersonation tricks making him a killer hacker. The guns he's modelled with tick the big guns and gangster theme and I guess we want him kicking doors in as that also ties back to the vanguard.

    With that in mind let's take a Zuyong chassis as a start and start adding bits in:

    • Zuyong base = 27 pts
    • Remove combi rifle -9 = 18 pts
    • Engineer + DCharges +4 = 22 pts
    • Chain colt +1 = 23 pts
    • Killer Hacker +3 = 26 pts
    • Veteran L1 +1 = 27 pts
    • Tactical Awareness +3 = 30 pts
    • +3 BTS +1? = 31pts

    That's not bad for a door kicking gangster who's going to lead a zuyong pain train into an infowar contested area. Fills an area of need but has clear weaknesses still. Might be a little cheap still for the double dip specialism he brings so how about adding Full Auto L2 into the mix? It's not a cheap skill (I haven't worked out how many points it is) and is only boosting pistols.

    Also options for switching out TA for something else leadership related such as NCO (saves a point but means he adds less when not using the pistols so I'd personally stick with TA).

    Alternately you could base him off of a Shang Ji chassis instead for a 9pt points increase but better stats in several areas (none of which are vital) and keep the efficiency elsewhere. If I went this route I'd almost certainly try to leverage the profile a little more with some grenades of some kind. There's some real mileage here if you gave him Frenzy as that would cancel out the Shang Ji upgrade cost while still fitting the rogue gangster theme.

    On the point of Frenzy I think there was a real opportunity missed to turn around the negativity from Uprising where YJ troops were constantly portrayed as blood thirsty murderers, etc by handing out Frenzy to Zuyong and have some blurb about side effects of the combat drugs used in the latest armour. It would've reduced costs and allowed for some other thematic improvements without the need for all of the 1W NWI updates while also making YJ players re-evaluate the narrative in light of the buff it gave them. Also, double pistols never made sense on line infantry (that are also carrying rifles) and should've been left on character or elite choices in my opinion.
     
    #209 BenMoss, May 15, 2019
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's not a matter of preferred gameplay, it's a matter of effectiveness on the table, which, while possibly obscured, is not a matter of opinion.
     
  11. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    Flat-out wrong. If Infinity had a surplus of units that were notably and entirely more effective, independent of playstyle and personal opinion, we'd have netlists and tournaments would get dull fast. As it is I can see Krit's Automedkit coming in handy if the Zuyong link is getting thrown all the way across into the enemy DZ where the orders simply aren't available to get a Doctor over, and E/Maulers are seriously strong in the right circumstances, especially considering the link can include an Assault Hacker which requires Reset instead of Dodge. He's not as vanilla a pick as the TacAware HMG, but there are conceivable circumstances where only he can do the job, even in Vanilla.

    There's also the corner case of scenery with the Hackable trait, which Engineers can mess with without inviting Killer Hackers to murder them. If you have a few tables with such scenery in important places and a meta that isn't straight Ariadna, that can be valuable due to the saturation of TO Killer Hackers.
     
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  12. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    We know SKUs are a limited resource because CB phases out stuff to make room. So to my mind, a ‘good’ troop is not necessarily a hyper efficient one, but rather one that opens up a new option or provides a different tool or tactic. Krit does neither. In link engineer? We can do that. Feurbach? Zuyong ML is close enough and cheaper. Automedikit? Zuyong can do that too. Emitter and emauler? That’s the only thing that sort of mixes stuff up but isn’t really worth the cost. For me, give him a grenade launcher or a perimeter weapon or eclipse grenades or even something like a drop bear or wild parrot and then maybe that 40ish points with bloat doesn’t seem too bad. Then maybe he’d be competition for Tai Sheng. Because let’s be realistic, I think he’s meant to be used in a pain train, not as a solo operator. Can he be used effectively in a link and outside of one? Sure. He’s a little pricey but adequate. That doesn’t make him good though because aside from a pretty sculpt he doesn’t really let IA do anything they couldn’t do before (except I guess have both an engineer and a killer hacker in the zuyong link).
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    We're getting there. Already in Tohaa or vanilla ALEPH I can pretty much predict what my opponent is gonna run.
     
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  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Out of how many Tohaa or Aleph players in your local meta? I can predict cypherkk's Ariadna lists and his JSA lists pretty well (and he can do the same to me), but that's a different discussion than going to Interplanetario and predicting the Tohaa or Aleph lists in a 150-player field.

    Because I remember the Paradiso missions where trying to shoehorn everything required into Imperial SS left you with exactly ONE build (2x Groups, 1xKSCD and 4x KS each). And that's something that we should take all efforts to avoid!
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    With Tohaa I think it might be a different reason; for one they are slightly smaller than ISS and for another certain profiles have so extremely strong synergies that they eclipse those who can not make use of SymbioMates. I can't see a pattern when it's so overwhelmingly a single unit that makes the difference.
     
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  16. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't both those factions stable (that is, without considerable new releases) for a long time before OSS and Spiral just came out? I'd suggest that's a bigger reason than profile efficiency.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    There are older factions with more variety in list-building. The point is that those factions have objectively optimal choices (Makauls + Sukeuls + Kaeltar, Posthuman Mk 2, etc) and they are better not just because of opinion, but because of game mechanics.
     
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  18. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    That is incorrect, gameplay plays a big role in unit efficiency, the local meta values redundancy over resilience 2+W models fall in value, if the meta plays infiltrating minelayersas objective deniers they have another value than a gameplay were infiltrating minelayers are used to place mines outside of the enemies deployment zone, in the same example the minelayer option itself changes from a local protection to a minelayer placement prevention instrument.

    Gameplay and meta drastically shift units roles and abilities and their value in the eyes of the players.

    That is probably due to local meta my local Aleph player finds all the tournament lists from satellites and the previous Interplanetarion "boring and unimaginative", I have to say my local players that were to interplanetario last year were seen as people who did not play like everybody else and caught many opponents out of guard with unpredictable (for them) gameplay.

    That been said a reserved gameplay will eventually create a pattern that is more easy to predict than a riskier gameplay, if for example the meta decides AD troops are too risky to have, high stakes tournaments will not have AD troops in them.

    That is correct but in addition both factions do not have the wide selection variety the other factions have limiting the vanilla toolkit selection.
     
  19. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    How to fix Krit:

    Frenzy
    Get rid of combi + emitter, maybe replace with a blitzen.
    Get rid of auto medikit
    Any kind of 'nade
    Dashat exclusive SMG + tactical awareness profiles.
     
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  20. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    WHy on earth would he be in Dahshat?
     
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