Stop straw-manning, @psychoticstorm . The thread is not abotu LGL and the comparison is not correct, because you get to react to an LGL. Jammers in a link are impossible for the active player to Reset against thanks to SSL2 and the declaration conditions, and are far more powerful than even a basic Jammer (B2 WIP +3). They were already problematically powerful. This extremely poor choice to put them in a link cannot be defended by saying "people like to complain about a lot of things." Yes, people sometimes complain about the wrong things. This is NOT the wrong thing: It is broken and will make playing SpecOps rules against either Haqq or Pan O deeply not-fun. You simply won't be able to get near their linkteams with taking an unopposable B2 WIP 17+ Jammer attack. to the face. I already know people practicing with this for Interplanetario and admitting outright that it's broken.
You are right. That issue with jammer could be handle by having it become an equipement instead of a weapon and creating a special skill for it, which is not an attack. Then you can justifiy there is no MOD against it, since it's not a bs attack, and you don't get +1 burst or +3 to Wp by getting into fireteam. It would probably remain too powerful / brainless imo but at least it would fix the rules for it. Could have it be only an active turn skill, or have the isolation work only for 2 turns ...
So, a thing that is (too much?) powerful in the ENORMOUS range of 8" and only during its reactive turn is so broken? Are you forced to activate something in the "danger area"? It's YOUR turn, shot him out of the table with something more long ranged than a Nanopulsar. If you try to drink soup with a knife, the problem is not in the kitchen...
Implying the holoprojector wont be up Implying the terrain will always be the fields of Passchendaele uhm...
....and if you give replies without thinking them out, crappy metaphors won't help cover that up. Jammers don't require LoF. Anyone with a brain will have them facedown on top of a building or inside one if possible. You don't have the opportunity to just shoot them, that's the problem. Maybe a unit with an 8" move or Super-Jump and a great angle could hit them, but those are corner-cases. And an 8" radius is 16" of the table, usually right over the objectives. Serious problem. So yeah, a B2 WIP 17 unopposed Isolate roll on anything that enters that 16" bubble is indeed a problem. Stop trying to minimize it and address the issue directly.
That's a good solution. They should also definitely become Comms equipment so that hackers can attack them directly, just like in the real world where ECM units target each other (also it gives more interesting utility to the Blackout hacking program). Jammers should also definitely lose their Intuitive Attack ability. It's a really powerful anti-camo measure available as an extra function on a thing that's already really strong. Splitting that function out to another item of equipment would make sense.
Provided the tournament is using SpecOps... and that the missions chosen don’t incentivize other builds... and you don’t have any tools to deal with it...
There are so many counters to a single wound model with such equipment that is even boring... SpecFire the Fireteam if it is within a building Blast from afar (bonus if you use a template weapon) Walk a warband in range and Chain Rifle the live out of the Jammer (bonus if you could guess the 8-10.5" range of the large teardrop) Use some Veteran model, if available Oh, wait... These are the same boring way to counters almost everything in the game... Come on...
Please, do explain how your other tools let you deal with a linked Jammer inside of a building near the objective. Other Jammers maybe, but they are at half the burst and -3 WIP by comparison. The missions won't disincentivize such a powerful tool. Just like shooting things is always helpful, a linked Jammer is always going to be incredibly powerful (broken) area denial. And of fricking COURSE this is only with SpecOps. Like, say, the Interplanetario this year. Again, stop trying to minimize or deflect and address the massive mechanical problem directly.
In my kitchen, I make sure none of my spoons have a razor sharp edge - and that if they did that spoon wasn't mixed in with the otherwise identical other soup spoons. We can bicker and argue about Jammers on normal models, but the problem here is how three effects (Holo1, Jammer and Sixth Sense) stack together
The Jammer is almost always going to be on a rooftop, and half of the Jammer guys will be Holo 1 as well. So almost none of that stuff works, because they units either get B2 WIP17 Jammered on the way in. Again, you're trying to use corner cases, deflection, and less-common units to defend a serious problem that's going to be right in the middle of things. You could say "well, just walk two other Jammers into range and hit it with a Coordinated Order" or "Everyone should just play Morats." These are not good solutions as they are rare and hard to do against a "tactic" that will be a complete no-brainer and which requires literally zero orders to deny 16" of board space very, very well. My own solution, of the many bad ones, will be to spend an entire turn using SpecFire to kill everything in any Haqq linkteam if I can (unlikely), or 3-5 orders on killing the Pan O SpecOp. That's a crappy order sink that will probably lose me games, but about the only solution for this.
Any game with SpecOps available will see the players bringing said profiles, because for +1pt from their basic troop you can get, at the very least, a Chain of Command, or a medic+Engineer on a WIP15 platform, or... Those are always useful. Like the Mimetic (5) with long range weapon (Multi Sniper for 6) on a BS 12 basic troop. Etc, etc...
And still the problem is only in your active turn (when it is YOU that chose who, when and how engage the enemy) and if you did not guess that kind of model is present . And again, if the problem is the Fireteam, blast it. ZC, Mutts, Hecklers. Plus Tohaa/SpiCo. These are the only one allowed to field this nonesense. Are we seeing so many of them breaking the game? Or are we playing recklessly in the face of a powerful item and blaming the game? Do you remember when we all started playing the game? Every time someone used a "new" item/skill it was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BROOOOOOKEEEEEEN, as long as you don't find that if you playd better, nothing would happen. It's the same, guys. It's just the same.
None of those have Sixth Sense, so no. This is about the Haqq spec ops. But while we're off topic, I think Muttas are the only unit that's been complained about for all of N3. Even complaints about the new Posthumans have died down (and I honestly didn't see that coming)
It's a corner case, not going to happen if you don't use spec-op rules. But if players with Haqq or Nomad spec op start to use that thing in our narrative campaign I can see it become a big annoyance for other players. Not fun for anybody. And narrative missions should be fun. Not about having a super weapon spec op. And that will probably deter some TO tu use the spec op extra knowing some players are going to use that build. Again, just like post human, Pre-Daedalus Symbiomate, Gazi and FAT lvl2, it's not going to break the game ... but all these things combined are probably doing some damage by spoiling the fun of some newer players who might drop it after a bad experience.
Just delete Jammers. Give everyone who had one an E/Marat; they already sculpted an E/Marat on a Heckler and called it a Jammer, indicating that CB isn't clear on what Jammers are themselves lol.
Well, it's more that it points to the Spec Ops rules being poorly edited/playtested, in that different factions have vastly different power levels when that option is added - a SSL1 B2 +3 WIP Jammer that you can hide behind Holo1 is pretty significant. And it's not like it's meant to be a "casual" option, either - CB added it to the Interplanetario.
It's also interesting to see the response when folks are advised that their incessant complaining is actually detrimental to their professed cause...
actualy, even Nanopulser fits, cause it template slightly longer than 8". of course you also need an eagle eye...
