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Invincible Tactical Doctrine

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Greysturm, Feb 27, 2019.

  1. Chaserabinov

    Chaserabinov Active Member

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    Fair point, but dont forget the Zhansi LGL. It might be very usefull - especially against jammers, hidden hackers/repeaters and suppresive fires You do not want to take head on.
    Also the Zhansi HMG is a very good secondary attack piece. 5 dice of BS 11 (BS14 with full link team) Dam. 15 is actually quite good on the active turn.
    Still looking for any use for the Zhansi Sniper dough ;).
     
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  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Good points but how many actually take them and use them? Sure they can be useful. Almost everything is in the right situation. But why would you when you can use the points and SWC on something that can make better use of both? I only start putting both into Zhanshi when I find I can't put them somewhere else. Now if they start making changes like they did with Ghulam, HMG, ML, or Regular Lt., or a NCO with LGL., hell ya i'd take him.
     
  3. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    ? You don't use Zhanshi LGL?
     
  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Honestly not in a very long time. I also haven't played my YJ in a long time. I stopped after Uprising and went to Ikari, now Dahshat, Druze, QK. I will be back though. I am getting ready to do some IA and Vanilla again soon. But every time I make a list, I need that 1 SWC for other things I want to take.
     
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Zanshi LGL?

    not sure I ever have.

    Wu Ming LGL? Just about every time it's a legal option. Though it really helps that the multiLGL doesn't cost SWC.

    If the Zanshi LGL wasn't so SWC-costly, it'd be more usable IMO. Or the bloody Zuyong/Shang JI need to get an LGL option!
     
  6. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    C'mon. We got the best MOBILE FO runner for our cause. I can tell you Zhanshi LGL combined with Zhencha is a monster of taking out Designated Target, hes an auto include for me upon Unmasking or Target fragging jobs.
     
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  7. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    The question is, of course, how often it's worth using LoF to Target something and then shoot it as opposed to just shooting it outright, especially when it's not particularly resilient DT.
     
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  8. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Eh, upon targeted LGL speculative becomes seriously accurate. Grenadier don't need to have LoF to the bombed guy.
     
  9. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I know. But why don't just apply a gun of whatever unit you have in FO's position instead of relying on FO as a middleman?

    Bonus points for having better odds of downing it outright than just marking it, nevermind almost 2 orders on average to shoot it down with your accurate LGL.

    I see it as being only worth if you can also clip a few troopers with a template.
     
  10. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Hmm, if that is your experience, I got no more quotes. I won more OPs by fragging down enemy Target with LGL DT or fragging a TR bot - but I guess thats just my experience.
     
  11. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing wrong with using LGL to save orders if getting a LoF is more expensive. But if you use FO first, that means you can just shoot right there instead. There is no advantage in doing otherwise. You can obviously still win, but that only means that you are far enough ahead that it doesn't matter.
     
  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Y'all know that the Spotlight hacking program doesn't require LOF to what you're Targeting, right?
     
  13. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but IIRC it all started with "we have cool FO".

    But then again, Spotlight and un-EVO'd Sat-Lock are terrible and you're probably better off just firing your LGL.
     
  14. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    So, working with some IA builds lately, and I've come to a bit of a realization, and with it, a roadblock with its design. The main element being frustration with its identity. IA at its core revolves around order manipulation to fuel its attack pieces.

    Basically, in order to get a functional list, you have to invest too much in some really standardized elements before you start actually building the list itself. As far as I can see it, there are really two main 'routes' for building an IA list. No matter how much I may try to build outward, I always find myself coming back to the following templates:

    IA Foundation 1
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2
    MÓWÁNG (NCO) Red Fury, Akrylat-Kanone / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 52)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)

    3 SWC | 162 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    Or

    IA Foundation 2
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    TAI SHENG (Chain of Command) Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 49)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)

    2.5 SWC | 219 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    (in either case, the Zhanshis can be replaced with FOs, Son Bae FTOs, or Pangguling FTOs)

    In order to get the most out of IA's ability to siphon orders into a (relatively) smaller amount of bodies, outside of gimmicky Limited Insertion lists, which I view more as a trap than anything else, feel like I'm chained to these. Once you max out on your cheap order bots, the Haidao sniper/Zhanshi core is the most bang for your buck you can get for your orders. As I've noted in the past, the Zuyong core is just too costly and cumbersome to play well with the other things that you'd want to support it. And the Haidao sniper is just crazy good, especially in a link.
    The Daoying and an NCO I'd consider mandatory. With the Daoying providing 3 usable orders for 29 points, it's a steal, espeically since it can spend the entire game in marker state if it wants. Which then means that the primary variation to build around comes down to our NCO options in order to get more viability out of those Lt orders.

    It's a pretty simple methodology, but the problem comes in just how much space it all takes. Having to spend 164 points (closer to 180 once you include order bots) before building outward feels really restrictive. But without much in the way of low-mid costing troopers to fill in gaps in functionality while also doing minor cheerleading, being stuck with such costly and restrictive options (see: the weird wildcard restrictions we get that no one else has to deal with) means we have to rely on squeezing every last drop of efficiency out of those expensive troopers just to get the basic elements of the toolbox into play.

    If options like the Guijia, Liu Xing, Yan Huo, or even Hulang (I'll skip the Hac Tao on this one, XO may be buggered right now, but I don't think he needs NCO) came with NCO profiles, it wouldn't feel so bad to be squeezed into such similar structures in list building, because each one would present different avenues in themselves as foundations to develop towards. But because of the dependence on that NCO for order management where other factions would have more conventional bodies and our limited options for utilizing them, being able to get the most out of a list turns these guys into obstacles in list building for me.
    Besides, it's not like any of those four troopers mentioned above are in any danger of being too good at anything (although I'd admit, order generation is the least of the Hulang's problems right now, and not the fix I'd want for him).

    Or am I just taking crazy pills?
     
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  15. Stuffist

    Stuffist Well-Known Member

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    I played a few games recently with a bunch of TacAware boys in haris, a Zhanshis+Haidao core and a Guijia (+Daoying as Lt²).
    And actually, it works fine. To me, the IA identity is orders generations and efficiency. And it applies event without any NCO.
    Actually, having a few TacAware orders in the haris means that the Guijia can eat most of the normal orders while the second threat (HMG in haris most the time for me) has enough to place itself or do a few things. Obviously, both Lt orders are used only by the Daoying but being the only normal HD in the list it means it can pop a supportware and then go back in camo token. That's what I call order efficiency: you don't overextend or have to put yourself in dangerous situations while doing what you wanna do (i.e. remove main targets, place yourself in position for scenario win or punish an error from your opponent).

    I never really understood the complains about the Guijia (but it seems it had only an AP HMG before), but the addition of DA CCW + TacAware was more than enough to convince to give it a shot now that I have more experience (still learning though). 1nd it performed quite well in IA, as you have lists with 14+ orders in limited insertion, instead of relying on Kuang Shis battery (your orders are then more difficult to remove, but you loose then 2 by 2 if any TacAware guy is lost).

    Edit to add:
    You can also build around a couple of Zuyong haris (technically, a Harris and a Core).
    If you can get 2+ TacAware in one and a NCO in the other, you're back to 2 flexible attack vector that have a small chance in ORA.
    I do agree that it doesn't solve your "it takes >60% of my list before I insert funke stuff in there", but it is a different aproach. =)
     
    #175 Stuffist, Oct 20, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
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  16. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Ditto. Got a few games in with similar approach for asteroid blues and it worked all right. Orders are the most precious resource in the game and they bring a lot of them. That's not bad imho
     
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  17. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Played an ITS with IA, ended up not using the lists I intended but the third game (with nothing to lose), tried a list with 2 Zencha and a RF Mowang backed up by a TacAware HMG + Haris + HaiDao KHD. No MSR HaiDao link. But the Zencha and Mowang encroached in the middle area (mission was Unmasking and I went first); laid mines and ended every turn in suppression.

    Controlling the angles was tricky but oh those Shock rounds (stacking -9 with Camo/Mimetism plus cover plus SF) were brutal. In Active, the HMG and the Mowang cleaned whatever tried to approach from the sides.

    I still feel I got lucky but it felt very very punishing for him. It was Tunguska with no visors and limited long-range weapons.
     
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  18. Kaiserburger

    Kaiserburger Active Member

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    I played the following list in Biotechvore yesterday against Onyx, for our local Infinity Campaign; ended up winning 8-0, but my guess is that not having to face a Sphinx (which I prepared for) was the only reason, even though the list was prepare to take care of that ugly son of an EI.



    IA UAC7
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36)
    ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28)
    LÉI GŌNG (Chain of Command) Submachine Gun, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    Lei Gong did not do something much relevant, but I still think that Haidao Sniper is a staple in every Vanilla and IA list lately, slowly taking place of Hsien (albeit I see they have different and he's still my main choice in ISS).

    The main idea behind this IA approach is the following.
    Since it's easy to suffer in reactive turn (a bit of bad luck could help) even though you're using Haidao MSR, linked Zuyong ML, Zencha, etc, invest on spamming replacements (the members of the Haris) for the main Core team (the initial 5 elements in the list), and put the core back on the job for the next active turn, if it gets partially destroyed.
    In active turn you can work on good positioning with the lots of order that IA can provide and shoot something meanwhile.
     
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  19. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    @Kaiserburger I've also been building this kind of list from time to time, and while it has performed pretty well I think it's fair to point out that for a sectorial without smoke/white noise like IA, playing without a plan B (AD, camo flankers, fast murderbot) is very risky.
    You'll have to throw your fireteam at whatever your opponent is putting in front you: sniper/missile launcher in fireteams or TO, dudes in supressive fire stacking mods, etc... and those are the kinds of oppositions that can end really, really bad, even for an HI, and you can be left without any good options if things don't go your way. Typically, your zuyong HMG tries to take down a fusillier ML and gets vaporized by a crit.
    If you go for this kind of list, you should really, REALLY invest in medic/engie support, and take a second HMG just in case something bad happened to the first one. Taï Sheng MK12 and Krit feuerbach are also options worth looking at.
     
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  20. Kaiserburger

    Kaiserburger Active Member

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    I completely agree.

    In general, it will be easy to find aliens (with ML noctifers) hidden here and there, after Defiance will land.
    One of those cheap guys can really mess up your link team and they require from little to no brain to get a good positioning and ruin your list after going out of hidden deployment.
    Once you have a ML pointed at one of your zuyongs from out of nowhere, it will be very easy to a) have him dead and/or unconscious far away from your doctor, and b) see that he/she's not the only one under the template, based on the "all happens at the same time rule". Basically, if you know that you're facing those kind of enemies, fireteams almost become a drawback and I find it crazy.

    IA doesn't have the points to afford most of the tools it could deploy and that's why, albeit looking cool, I can't stick Feuerbach Krit in any list: having an aggressive linkable engineer is cool, but for those points I'd rather try to field a Mowang with NCO.


    My main feeling about IA is that, with the current rules, this sectorial needs to be played with too many zhanshi and REMs, and those are not looking so "Invincible" to me.
    Not to mention that two of the YJ main units (Rui Shi and Zuyong) are not trained to be linked together, while Dashat managed to teach them, and I still can't digest that.

    3iz2rj.jpg
     
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