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Invincible starter pack

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Triumph, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    From your mouth to God's (err, @Bostria's) ears! Further hint-hint-nudge-nudge.



    I want both Engineer and KHD.
     
  2. IAGO242

    IAGO242 Executive Officer

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    Love this list, will definitely run it.
    I disagree about dropping the hac tao. Unexpected threat vectors are always good and the mowang will surely go down.
     
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  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Ehhh, I don't know about unexpected. You can pretty easily tell there's about a 5th of his army missing with 9 order generating models on the table, and you know there's only one combat group so it can't be 2 Liu Xing.

    A SWC count reveals he's basically maxed out on SWC (you can see 5 SWC, only the Daoying is hidden) so by process of elimination you can basically guarantee it's a Hac Tao with a Multi Rifle, at which point you'd assume it's the KHD profile because it's popular.
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    If you are solidly familiar with the YJ/IA model set, or if your meta allows someone to reverse-engineer your army list in the deployment/Army Parade phase.
     
  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Some people in my meta do autistically add up points and SWC from memory to get a read on what their opponents are doing.

    That particular list is pretty easy because you know it's only got 1 missing model, and alot of the models are essentially shared profiles between armies like the Son Bae and Zhanshi, and the visible 5 SWC gives you a big boost in process of elimination as to what would've been taken.

    When you're showing 2 SWC and place 6-8 camo markers on the table as Vanilla, yeah that's difficult to predict threats. This IA list though? This is something that just about anybody could manage with a little critical analysis applied to it. You know roughly what most of the stuff should cost based on working backwards with your own armies (CB do tend to follow a formula in the majority of cases after all) and you know how many models (10) are present and they have very limited options as to what the missing model could be. That's pretty basic stuff to work out.
     
    #25 Triumph, Dec 14, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I used to be able to do that, back before N3. Too many different profiles for me to do that in my head anymore. Or too many beers.


    Do you know that there are 9 models in the list though? You don't know Order Count until the top of their first turn, so there could be 11 with a pair of off-table troops (Say, Ninja KHD and a Tiger/Liu Xing heavy) and one of the Zanshi slid into Group 2.

    Yeah, there is that change that single combat groups no longer suffer the -2 Orders effect, but what happens when they go second?

    I'd certainly make that one of the variations of the list to play.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You are assuming they're not running less than 10, because that'd be well, odd to say the least. If they're running 9 models they're playing points down and that'd be super weird. You know there can't be more than 10 because the number of combat groups is open information and your opponent isn't allowed to lie about that. If there's a 2nd combat group with 1 liu xing in it then your opponent has to tell you there's a second combat group with nothing that you can see in it.

    Army doesn't print empty combat groups but it should.

    You also know it's impossible for the Zencha to pretend to be a mine, because that'd break SWC limits to get the Daoying minelayer profile.

    As for why can't you slide 1 Zhanshi across to create a group 2, you can't because they're in a link together. You'd also allow your opponent to zap your order pool with a command token too for no reason so there's that too.
     
    #27 Triumph, Dec 14, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  8. IAGO242

    IAGO242 Executive Officer

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    Yes, but even if they know you have a hac tao you still can deploy it in locations that will have your opponent wary, and if they are not wary, they should be. And even if they are,still a great attack piece.

    I just had two games with a KHD hac tao, game one it supprised Mc big dog and killed him, killed a hacker, a Moran and then next turn his tomcat burnt the hac tao but didn’t kill him and in return was wounded by the nanopulsar.

    Other game the hac tao walked all the way across the board past Mary problems and then surprise red rumed his Interventor LT, putting him in loss. Unfortunately, I then lost focus and spent the rest of the orders on zuyong link rather than finishing off Mary. She zapped him good and tanked the nanopular.
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is saying the Hac Tao is a bad attack piece, of course they're awesome. The point is the Mowang and Hac Tao are going to fight each other for orders. Like you discovered in your last game, you run out of orders and get them killed if you run attack pieces that fight over the same set of orders.

    Basically I'm suggesting you pick one or the other as your main attack piece, then build the list with a cheaper backup attack piece and give yourself more orders and a better spread on support units to increase the list's resilience.

    In the case of something as fat as the Mowang, my expectation from running the Su Jian is you shouldn't be losing it on turn 1. If it's going to die the earliest it should be without either extremely bad luck or a tactical cockup on the user's behalf should be your turn 2. So having a 20%+ of your list not contributing to the game in hidden deployment for 2 turns is an expensive decision to make to say the least. The idea is as plan B is being set aside for turn 3, having cheaper alternatives and more resources in the mean time are more desirable whilst still maintaining a credible second hitter in the form of the Zuyong HMG, who is afterall still a BS13 HMG with a bonus order he can use on himself every turn.

    In the meantime sneaking a doctor in makes the list way more resilient, and makes it much harder to entirely remove your ARO presence. The Haidao and doctor play really well together as you can have him shoot with link bonuses until he takes 1 wound, go prone, have the doctor fix him to full HP, then stand him back up and go back on overwatch.
     
    #29 Triumph, Dec 14, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Hrm, OK, I'd missed that number of combat groups was open info.

    Then again, I've almost always played single-combat-group lists, so it's not something I run into often. (Pretty obvious when Ariadna lists have 20+ camo tokens on the table that they're running multiple combat groups, simply because nothing camo'd in Ariadna is expensive enough or high enough AVA to do 20 camo tokens in one combat group)




    Agreed on the Bold+Italics part.

    While I generally like two (or three!) relatively tough attack pieces, your list doesn't really lend itself to doing that without massive re-working, @-Ghost- . Plus, when I put a list together, it's usually set up so that two of those attack pieces may be doing double-duty threatening AROs as well.

    I pick one piece and attack with it for 4-5 orders (or more, depending), may only spend one order on something that popped up for the others. Depends on what needs to happen in that turn. I try to spend time looking at what needs to happen, and decide how many orders I'm willing to spend on that this turn. If I can get there in one order and do it, that's that, I will usually not spend more than 3 orders on a one-MOV action. Sometimes, I will decide to only spend 2 orders, particularly with something facing a big ARO like ML or MSR. Usually with the Yan Huo HRMC, you need to spend one order to get LOF and the second to get back into cover, anyway. But I'd leave a Zuyong HMG standing for ARO, as well as having a Guilang MSR lurking about.
     
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  11. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    Either Haidao works for me. I'm trying to be as WYSIWG as possible to my own standards. It'll be the Engineer for now until I get a Shotgun in his hands.

    I did already have a Zhencha in the list... If you mean to take two thatst fine. Just looking for something a bit diff since a few builds of IA tend to be fairly similar.

    Thanks, try it out and let me know! I might do a test game this weekend if my group has time to play. We bounce around game systems so the experiences don't get stale.

    Mowang is definitely gonna be the main attack piece. I really don't have another unless I reform, or get aggressive with my Core. MML2 on the Son Bae, or just using the Haidao Camo Hunter works with all the link buffs as well.

    Again, the list is for fun, trying something a little different and bringing a solid KHD even with it's shortcomings (no way of starting of outside the deployment).
     
  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree!

    Super Hero Landing!

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    And I thought photobucket was dead
     
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  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Same here. I looked up some old stuff and found it was there! I figured I'd keep using it. Sucks that you have to have the watermark if you want the free service.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Look I fixed it with imgur. Took 5 seconds to drag and drop your picture to reupload it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. emperor26

    emperor26 Imperial Agent

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    In general, I really like the look of IA starter models. Especially Zuyong females!

    If I would have to point out one thing that I slightly dislike, it would be the new YJ shotgun design.... I mean come on, isn't this suppose to be happening 175 years in the future? What's up with all these ''new'' pump-action shotguns, hand-held panzerfausts etc. if the old minis already had semi-automatic shotguns and shoulder-mounted panzerfausts.

    While I like the models, I can't come to the bottom of the question, why Liu Xing, despite its fluff, only has PH12 and W1+NWI+Bioimmunity (instead of e.g. PH13 and 2W)? Other than the ''last minute balancing'', I have no clue why such a drawback. Look at the buff mini of it!
    @Bostria, maybe help please? :D
     
  17. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I like the Starter very much. I would prefere two more BSGs for the Daoying (Lt.L2 & Hacker) and die Haidao (KHD) but it is okay. If you go Wyswig and want to use all Starter-Models you can play the Haidao with CoC wich allows you to play the Daoying more acitve (or can turn a closed eye on his Combi and play him as KHD to run in the Zuyong link). With the HMG Zuyong Blister and perhaps the M-Rifle Dude from the YJ Starter you have a more than full core link and can use the ML as a ARO piece.

    What we now need is a NCO (and maybe a second Zuyong HMG) :blush:

    That leave us with this units missing:

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]4
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    MÓWÁNG (NCO) Red Fury, Akrylat-Kanone / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 52)
    HÚLÁNG (Fireteam: Duo) 2 Submachine Gun, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 41)

    1 SWC | 172 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I think the Zhencha will be next and I hope for Tai very soon.

    For the Shang Ji - i have a lot of patience ... not see much use for them:worried:
     
  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, about the only reason to take a Shang Ji appears to be the HRL. Everything else Zuyong do better and/or cheaper! :cold_sweat:
     
  19. Miraclebutt

    Miraclebutt Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree on the HRL, but I think that a Spitfire Shang Ji has legitimate punch if used in an inexpensive Zhanshi Core. There's also an argument for the hacker, as it's IA's only source of linkable AHD. Both are extraordinarily expensive though, and it's a fair cop to not want to take a Shang Ji in your list.

    All that being said, Zuyong cores are distressingly light on template weapons, so it's nice to have a flamethrower. I just wish it were on a less expensive unit.

    As an aside, don't discount Zhanshi Cores. It's remarkably cost-effective if you're just looking for a cheap defensive link, and with all the wildcard options, keeping it around for the first reactive just to dissolve it and reform into an aggressive Haris or Zuyong Core for your active turn is a viable option.
     
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  20. emperor26

    emperor26 Imperial Agent

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    Shang-Ji haris, somewhat like this, also works pretty well...

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]3
    SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 45)
    SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)

    2.5 SWC | 114 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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