Because when an army develops something to replace old tech/equipment, it doesn't immediately replace everything. The most elite units/squads/battalions get the good gear, and the less prolific ones get hand me downs and old stuff. You don't just instantly replace everything, it takes time to phase out the old. Also, there isn't a single sectorial that doesn't have a "basic" light infantry. And since both the Zhanshi and IA are state army, it doesn't make any sense to create an IA specific light infantry.
To add on to this, the invincible army is only invincible as far as the information they put out. They very well could have Zhanshis and other non-armored plebs doing the dirty work behind the scenes, fixing the machines and doctoring the "real" armored soldiers, they just won't show anyone that. The entire purpose of the "Invincible" army as far as I'm aware is a propaganda ploy to show the strength of the Yu Jing empire and its ability to field entire legions of power-armored soldiers who will not fall to the enemy. They are "Invincible".
Actually, they are not Invincible, they are a mistranslation caused by going from chinese to spanish and from spanish to english. Based on this historical force: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ever_Victorious_Army They are basically a more professionalized and modernized force which supports the Banner Armies. And the modernization part is where the power armor comes into play. It would make no sense to a rational person to put Zanshi in there, it would be like attatching a battalion of lef infantry to a mechanized force. But you see, the people at Corvus are not rational people. I have no doubt Zanshi will be there, and I have no doubt there will be a justification. But I'm not buying the "it's already justified" when the fluff made an effort to establish that the Invincible Army has nothing to do with the Banner Armies.
@Aldo The Invincible Army isn't the Ever Victorious Army of real life, it's a creation of Corvus Belli and the Translation goes from Spanish to Chinese, not the other way around. @mittenninja what's the basic light infantry of USARF and Steel Phalanx? There's a reason why some people would like a MI to form the basic/supporting infantry base of IA.
That's where they took the name from, Imperial China's, Frederick Tonwnsend Ward's lead, Ever Victorious Army. The Chang Sheng Jun, which became the Invincible Army through the magic of translation. This has been established, and I remember having read the name Chang Sheng Jun in at least one unit entry.
USARF is the Grunt, and yes, it's MI but they range from 10-21pts. That's the same role as other faction's LI. Phalanx is the same deal with the Thorakatai. Onyx has REM "basic" infantry, Vedic will too. The point is there already exists a state army trooper in that role, the zhanshi. It would make zero sense to create a new (and completely unnecessary) unit to fill the role.
Managing to fuck that translation up is of too epic proportions, though, since that'd require to not even look at Wikipedia for China and everything relating to China's armed forces. You wouldn't happen to have a reference for that this mistake having been made? And the counter-point is that it's just as unnecessary as when CB made Grunts instead of using Kazaks or Metro for USARF, or why even bother making something Tunguskan when you might as well use Moderators of Bakunin for Tunguska sectorial. I'm sure Regulars of Aconticimento would've made more sense than Order Sergeants and might as well have used Ghulam instead of Brawlers for Druze.
Because kazaks and metros aren't American. Moderators are on a specific ship, not the Tunguskan one. They aren't a part of the same group. Zhanshi are a part of the same Branch as the IA, the State Army. They work side by side because the State Army is one conglomerate, with the IA being a division of the State Army. USARF is not contained within MRRF or TAK. Bakunin and Corrigador are not a part of Tunguska.
It isn't really a fuckup, more of a more poetic translation, due to Ever Victorious Army sounding really wonky in Spanish. Like, real wonky. Try saying "Ejército Siempre Victorioso" fast five times. Ahahaha Got it Old Invincible fluff says: Invincibles In the Chang Sheng Chun, or the Invincible Army, lies the military force of Yu Jing: the power to deploy in combat numerous heavily armoured infantry troops. The Invincible Army was born during the military reform made by Minister Tseng Huan. They wanted to change the current army model of the State, based on large quantities of poorly trained light troops, for a more modern and effective one. Military research was improved and focussed on the development of body protection. They managed to produce stronger and tougher servo-powered armours. Many camps and training centres were built, with the best instructors of the Human Sphere. In a short time, Yu Jing had a very strong highly disciplined force, able to carry out the most complex tactical manoeuvres. Nowadays, the Invincibles have become an excellent attacking force because, though they were trained by foreign instructors, they have never forgotten their Chinese inheritance, turning them into formidable close combat fighters. Their precise discipline, order and tactical ability are both singular and excellent. Due to their appearance and reputation, they really do appear invincible in combat. Is this enough proof?
I'm sure it makes sense to form an army meant to obsolete and replace the Banner army structure around a large number of regiments consisting of Zhanshi, Troops of the Banner. Just because cavalry were part of the American army in the past, doesn't mean it makes sense to include cavalry in a helicopter division. Or to make slightly less exaggeration, even the German army during the early stages of World War 2 still contained horses, but it was rapidly modernising and retiring their cavalry (of course, help speed that along after being forced to dismantle nearly all of their army after WW1) and the horses were mostly used for moving artillery and supplies. So in terms of IA, that means that a very low presence of Zhanshi would still fit in IA, but it'd be in marginalised roles with the end goal being to phase them out or re-equip them with proper armours - i.e. Zhanshi Yisheng and Zhanshi Gongcheng makes sense, but not Zhanshi, Troops of the Banner since the latter are being suited up and retrained to become Zuyong. That said, CB doesn't always make decisions that will make perfect sense and there are other reasons that might mean we see the disappointing Zhanshi in the roles of Keisotsu, Celestial Guard, Metro, Dakini, etc. Among those are limiting number of new physical releases. But if Keisotsu are disappearing... admittedly a big if, but then there's plenty of room for a different type of low-cost troop that is more suited for being supporting troops for the IA. Heh, fair enough. I'm sure I read it explained exactly the opposite way by a much more senior forum member. Still doesn't really make sense - I mean why they chose to keep references to Ever Victorious Army, but failed to name it properly.
@Mahtamori the State Army hasn't eliminated the need for light infantry soldiers, they're moving to eliminating they're reliance on them as the bulk of their fighting force, which is what the IA represents. Calvary isn't a branch of the military, it's a unit. The US Navy employs land, sea, and air forces despite their name implying that they only have naval forces. The Invincible Army, likewise, does not only employ HI, it's just the core of the force.
Yes... and the US Navy stopped using conscripts armed with pikes, too, and instead they are now trained and armed properly. Zhanshi are as you can read in Aldo's quote up there, a type of soldier that's essentially a poorly armed and poorly trained conscript. The Invincible Army is all about training and arming them better and transforming them to HI are part of that armament, yes there's room for non-HI soldiers but it still doesn't make good sense for those soldiers to be Zhanshi. But I'm not arguing Zhanshi* should be replaced with HI, I'm arguing they should be replaced with MI - cheaper armour that still offers good protection and requires less training - and more specialised weapons, particularly those not typically found on HI. * Well, Kuang Shi, really, very few are using Zhanshi much in vanilla
We don't have a relative timeline for the quote and it doesn't call out Zhanshi, it could have been before the Zhanshi were a thing. Maybe the Zhanshi ARE the properly trained light infantry of the state?
From the Zhanshi: "The Zhanshi are the core of the army, the most important general purpose light infantry corps, and they take part as regular troops in most joint operations and offensive deployments. They also form the defense garrisons of border cities and settlements. One of the features of the training these soldiers receive is the cardinal importance given to close quarters combat, something uncommon in other regular armies. The Zhanshi are the anonymous heroes of Yu Jing: disciplined troops, comfortable under enemy fire because they know it is their duty to bear the brunt of all military operations." Doesn't sound like poorly trained conscripts to me.
And yet, they are the bulk and defining feature of the White Banner, but we shall just have to see what happens in IA, shan't we?
First and foremost "it's part of the StateEmpire Army" is probably the worst justification for whether something should or shouldn't be included in a sectorial. Right off the bat, did you know that the armies created by the Regional Dispersion Program are also part of the StateEmpire Army command structure? However, they are separate branches, just like the Troops of the Banner and the Invincible Army. So should Japanese units show up in White Banner? Perhaps the Invincible Army should have Keisotsu instead? I mean, it's all part of the StateEmpire Army at the end of the day. This is the problem with defining a sectorial broadly, it starts doing what vanilla lists are meant to represent (different branches and organizations working together). It becomes especially problematic in larger factions like Yu Jing and PanO where they easily have enough large units to make dozens of potential sectorials (there are eight banner regiments for example). And while the special forces are noted as working closely alongside the other branches and organizations of Yu Jing, we have ample evidence that the main arms (aside from the Assault Corps who are a special case) like the Troops of the Banner, Regional Armies and the Invincible Army don't train together on a regular basis (and in all honesty, the Troops of the Banner and Invincible Army are actively competing with each other in the eyes of the old and new guard of military command). So just as it wouldn't make sense to see Zhanshi in the Japanese Regional Army, it would make just as little sense to see them plonked in to the Invincible Army because they are decidedly different and unrelated branches of the StateEmpire Army. The Invincible Army isn't anymore a generic StateEmpire taskforce any more than the JSA is or the White Banner will be. They are lists meant to be a very specific representation of a very specific faction in the game's background. Now, because this seems to be getting straw-manned in a lot, no one arguing for the non-inclusion of Zhanshi in the Invincible Army is saying that the list should not include cheap units to offset the high number of expensive HI the list can field. Those above comments aren't what folks are arguing about. We're arguing that the Zhanshi is a poor fit as the basic line troop in sectorial whose entire purpose is to make the Zhanshi obsolete. They are better served, like most existing factions, by getting their own unique 5-12 point troop option that fits their background better than ramming one of the worst existing LI in to a list that would prefer a much more efficient use of its points at the the low/mid-cost end of the spectrum. So we agree, Invincibles can't live on HI and elite troops alone. Where we differ is in what that should be. For the anti-Zhanshi side, the fluff has made it abundantly clear than the Zhanshi and Invincibles are wholly different branches of the StateEmpire army, in the same way the Regional Armies are. Further, the Invincible background has made no small point about how they are meant to replace the banner armies. Invincibles aren't the generic StateEmpire Army sectorial, such a thing should never exist and is wholly outside the realm of what a sectorial should do (especially for large national factions like those found in Yu Jing and PanO). Zhanshi are an ill-fitting and out-of-place LI choice outside of their own branch (the Banner Armies) and the Invincibles deserve a choice at the low/mid-cost end of things that reflect the list better than the troopers they are actively replacing. Give us better-trained MI, give us cheap remote troops, give us efficiently-costed "elite" troops that use Frenzy and clever equipment choices to keep costs down (while working perfectly well as a link team), hell give us AI beacons or any combination of the above. Zhanshi make the least sense, and although that may not dissuade CB from forcing them in there (just as it appears they've forced the Daofei out), it certainly isn't a choice that the fluff supports, nor is it a choice that the army even wants (because short of a re-design, even when they are the only option, a sectorial with a bunch of high-cost troops don't want to be hampered by the least point-efficient LI in the game). But then, this thread has probably veered off topic more than it needs to. So probably time to bow out.
