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Invincible Fireteams

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by WarHound, Jul 12, 2019.

  1. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Is that important? Both Versions of Kokram FTO have FT Duo!

    So Kokram FTO can be part of a FT that only he can create. The Guijia does not have this option.

    If you substitute Kokram FTO with a Shang Ji Wildcard, than there is no Kokram that can be part of the special FT and therefore there is no duo skill to form the special FT duo.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I still hold that that is an entirely mangled reading of the rules, not at all supported by what's written in any way shape or form.

    Additionally, I'd like to point out that Krit is a Zuyong for Fireteam composition, so the Special Fireteam Duo he creates with the Guijia is a Zuyong Special Fireteam, not a Krit Kokram Special Fireteam.
     
  3. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    It's still clear as Mud. Shang Ji have the Duo Skill so hypothetically, they can replace Krit because at least one of the team has the duo skill.

    If there was an actual rule for Wildcard I'd put it here too but the haven't done that.

    I can can see how the TA+Tinbot Shang Ji would be very nice and possibly a lot better than Krit. The AHD is also pretty good one to defend against hackers. The problem with Krit or a Shang Ji is that when you take them and the Guijia, What's going to make up the rest of the force!

    Requirements
    In addition to the Fireteam Common Requirements, a Fireteam: Duo has to fulfill the following specific Requirements:
    • A Fireteam: Duo must be composed of a maximum of two troopers.
    • Both members of the Fireteam: Duo must belong to the same unit, or those combinations of units indicated on their Sectorial Army List.
    • One of the members must have the Special Skill Fireteam: Duo.
     
  4. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    I just read the 1.7 update. I didn't see the text saying you must bring, in this example above, a Zuyong Haris profile.

    This is what I found in 1.7

    FIRETEAMWhen creating a Fireteam: Core that includes Wildcard troopers, you must include at least one trooper from one of the units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart, or a trooper who counts as one of those units.

    When creating a Fireteam: Haris or Duo, the Fireteam belongs to the unit of the trooper with the Fireteam: Ha-ris or Duo Special Skill.

    The text above does not support your claim. I think I am missing some information.

    Can you elaborate on this please.
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    @Azuset it’s been covered multiple times up-thread.

    If the Haris trooper is a Zuyong, it’s a Zuyong Haris. This is listed in the Zuyong Special Fireteams.
    If the Haris trooper is a Shang Ji, it’s a Shang Ji Haris. There is no Shang Ji + Yan Huo Haris listed for the Shang Ji.
     
  6. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Well you see. The difference here is that the special fireteam 2 Yan Huo FTO + Zuyong haris appears in both Zuyong and Yan Huo entries. That means is neither a Zuyong link nor a Yan Huo link but both. The requirement when swapping with wildcards is that at least one of the initial composing members remains in the link. Therefore as it can count as a special Yan Huo link I could swap the Zuyong haris with a Shang Ji haris and the linkteam would be still valid because it's not exclusively a Zuyong link. To put it in other words: "special fireteams" have a given composition X + Y (+Z) So as long as X or Y or Z remains in the link it's a valid fireteam. On the other hand there're units that "count as X". Therefore those units can only join a link where the haris or duo unit is of the kind X.

    Keepin that in mind, a haris fireteam composed by Kokram + Tai Sheng + Zuyong haris is a legal Zuyong fireteam because it's a haris of Zuyongs given the fact Kokram and Tai Sheng count as Zuyong. But if we tried to swap the Zuyong haris with a Shnag Ji the link would be illeagal because it would become a normal Shang Ji link, therefore neither Kokram nor Tai Sheng would be able to join because they count as Zuyong.

    More or less that's Mahtamori's point and the reason why the rule is still a mess and not so clear as you want to make it sound.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    So you haven't read the errata. :-(
     
  8. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this would be true for core fireteams, but you're ignoring the rule for haris teams that states that the link belongs to whichever troop has the haris skill. A Zuyong with the haris skill is able to support two seperate kinds of Haris - a Zuyong haris and a Zuyong + Yan Hou haris, a Shang Ji on the other hand is only capable of supporting a Shang Ji haris. The minute you swap the Zuyong for the Shang Ji, the link becomes a pure Shang Ji team - Yan Hou cannot join Shang Ji teams and so are booted out
     
  9. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    My apologies if this comes off as a bit daft but I would like to make sure I understand this correctly.

    With this rule:

    "When creating a Fireteam: Haris or Duo, the Fireteam belongs to the unit of the trooper with the Fireteam: Ha-ris or Duo Special Skill."

    What people are thinking this rule means is that it says "When creating a Fireteam: Haris or Duo, the Fireteam belongs to the unit of the trooper with the Fireteam: Ha-ris or Duo Special Skill. You cannot use a wildcard option to swap out a model with a Fireteam: Haris or Dou"

    Players swapping out a wildcard unit with one for a fireteam skill is the real issue at hand right?
     
  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    It's making a bit more sense to me now. So for the other fire team also mentioned Krit+Guijia, a Shang Ji can’t replace Krit because the Duo would become a Shang Ji Duo and that’s not a valid team. However, any wildcard could replace the Guijia.

    It sounds, by default, that a Haris or Duo must have at least one (the one with the skill) to be the troops from which it’s made. So it’s the same as the Core rule but with he added note that it must also be the one with the Haris or Duo skill.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I find this particular FAQ entry to be particularly dumb and unclear, and fucks with game balance far too much. Suddenly we are directed to look at Fireteam type as the main decider rather than the individual models written in the rules - does that mean Guijia + Zuyong TA HMG is now valid because Krit explicitly forms Special Zuyong Duos?

    Now more than ever do they need to rewrite the entire Fireteam entry table to be consistent, but that's what they seem to be trying to avoid with this FAQ entry.
     
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  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    No I think it's meant to be a Krit fireteam. He's the only must have in that Duo. And replacing the Guijia just makes it a Krit (Zuyong) Duo by default.

    I've already done that in a way that's much easier to understand. I think it's a lot more clear than what they have given us.
     
  13. Forté

    Forté Well-Known Member

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    So the Guija in the Krit Haris duo could be swapped out for:
    • Haidao
    • Shang Ji
    • Son-Bae FTO
    • Pangguling FTO
    Same with the Zuyong haris swapping out the Yan Huo FTO and the Shang Ji haris.

    With the haris leaders being:
    • Krit
    • Zuyong (haris)
    • Shang Ji (haris)
    Not sure I'm right on that.
     
    #33 Forté, Jul 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  14. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Krit cannot be part of a YanHuo fireteam, but you can just build a normal Zuyong Haris with him
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @Forté I assume you mean Duo and not Haris? Krit doesn't have Haris and Guijia can't ever be part of a Haris (at present).
     
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  16. Forté

    Forté Well-Known Member

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    Oops. Thank you. Corrected the comment.
     
  17. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    This help?

    Krit Kokram / Guijia Duo

    1 Krit Kokram FTO
    0 to 1 Guijia
    0 to 1 Haidao (Wildcard)
    0 to 1 Shang Ji (Wildcard)
    0 to 1 Son-Bae (Wildcard)
    0 to 1 Yaopu Pangguling FTO (Wildcard)
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Tbh, you may as well put 0-1 Zuyong in there as well and remove Guijia from the header. It'll save you space from writing an almost identical entry for Krit Kokram excluding the Guijia.
    Also, maybe "0-1 Guijia (Special Fireteam)"

    In the main thread you should probably also specify the 1-2 Zuyong as "1-2 Zuyong (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG" as the other Zuyong profiles do not have any Duo skill.
     
  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The Krit-Zuyong is already covered in the Zuyong Duo. This is specifically the Krit-Guijia Duo. By the time you take anything other than a Guijia it's just a Zuyong Duo anyway.

    I already have at the top that one troop must have the Duo or Haris skill. Is it really needed there too?
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's not quite covered in the Zuyong Fireteam because the Zuyong Fireteam entry is erroneous now that Duo skill is not just necessary, but also must be on the correct profile. There's only two Zuyong options for the mandatory Duo skill; TA HMG, Krit. Currently, the mandatory Zuyong is listed as any Zuyong.