That starter pack is utter garbage though, from a game play point of view. Zuyong with ML is a dead profile, the Boarding Shotgun is equally dead, since Haidao has Boarding Shotgun. The Liu Xing is literally the worst profile they printed. The MSR Daying is useless as it's absurd to risk your Lt. to snipe with and you desperately need those SWC. The only good ones are the Haidao and the Zuyon combi, which have tactical sense.... this starter set is actually just as bad a starter set as the Neoterra one.
This leaves the Neoterra starter in the dust, and I actually want to get that one! Zuyong ML in link is powerful in ARO, sniping and even close range thanks to its shotgun. The Daoying is fantastic for guarding your DZ and objective if it isn't LT, and if it is, it is still difficult to kill and makes good use of those orders clearing light ARO. The Boarding Shotgun Zuyong is cheap and has shown up in a few lists on the listbuilding threads as filler. The Combi+Tinbot, BS and ML make for a nice Haris, and the Haidao Engineer can join in to make a four man Core from just the starter. I am in full agreement that the Liu Xing Hacker is ridiculous, but that extends to all AD AHDs. I dearly wish CB would stop putting the damned things in Starter Packs, since with the Akal and Tiger this makes three. There are more Assault Hackers with jetpacks than there are Spitfires in those packs for beginners now!
The problem with the Zuyong ML is that it is taking up valuable space you need for specialist and TA profiles. Zuyong links are aggressive because they exist in the context of an army that can't afford to pack the board (and field that Zuyong link) and so it has to leverage order-stretching rules to make up for this. While you can make Zuyong links without a heavy presence of TA or NCO, it will be straight up worse than other HI links you find because Zuyong are, frankly, on the expensive side for "low end" no-frills HI. They are getting no point-dropping advantages like 1W+NWI or Frenzy and as such their base profiles are expensive despite being pretty bare-bones. Compared to things like Hollow Men or Riot Grrls who come in at similar point levels but have so much more and you can kind of see why many of us bend over backwards to stuff in as many of those 4-point TA orders as we can. TA gives a better return on points than Kuang Shi and are hard to pass up. I really wish there were just 1-2 more TA profiles to jazz list-building up a bit. Spending points on a single ARO piece without TA, or on a BS when better, cheaper filler exists means you're paying toward all the overhead of the Zuyong's stat line (which is the downside of the Zuyong) without getting any of its strengths (link mixing, cheap orders via TA and NCO, SWC discounts for aggressive weapons, etc.). In general, I do think it is kind of sad that the Zuyong didn't see any kind of streamlining or point shaving because it more or less forces your hand when list-building to only grab the most sectorial-efficient profiles. If the ML got a TA profile, you would 100% see it in place of the second HMG so many go for (and it would neatly solve the SWC filling problem we face), but since we have to give up something to bring it you just won't see it very often in an offensive-heavy link. Meanwhile, the BS is bad filler given that the link will likely already contain one (the Haidao) and can take a 13 point remote with a shotgun instead. Hell, you can grab a Son-Bae ML for the link instead of the Zuyong one and it can get Marksmanship L2 popped on it for better shooting efficiency overall. This is why these two profiles are not quite ideal. A new HMG (or even just a repack) and a second combi would be generally better. I do agree with you on the use of the Daoying. I love the MSR Daoying as my second non-LT Daoying. This is why I don't like it in the box. That is the kind of role you do in a blister. The BS Daoying would be better for the box. I'd have loved to see the SMG Zhencha in place of the Xiu Ling myself and just made the Haidao the hacker instead. That would make the starter full of bread and butter profiles. As it is, so many of the profiles in there are misfit or second-tier profiles. You can certainly make lists with them, but you probably have better ways of spending your points.
@Durandal, notice how button-pushing Specialists (idiotic sky hackers notwithstanding) are almost always left out of Starter Boxes? I strongly suspect CB designs them as standalone, direct action boxes suitable for people still learning the game. While I agree about the Zuyong Boarding Shotgun being worse at filler than the Pangguling, it is also half the dollar price- again, important for Starters. It is important to note that most of my judgements here are under the perspective of a new player starting a collection, when it comes to what would actually hack it in my own lists on a routine basis, it basically comes down to the Daoying and Haidao since I like to run static Cores and Zuyong are too pricy for that.
I can't speak for Durandal, but personally I'd have preferred 2 or even 3 combi Zu Yongs in the starter, instead of the BS and maybe ML. I feel I would also get a lot more use out of a BS Daoying and MSR Haidao instead, too. The Liu Xing doesn't bother me much - personally I see no problem with using the hacker model as a non-hacker. That said, most starters aren't really "optimized", so maybe I'm being too picky. :)
On the ML and BS Zuyongs I think they are fine. There are pros and cons to using the Pango FTO. Outside the obvious benefits of it being dirt cheap there are some drawbacks. It's less resilient being 1 wound, it's the lame gazelle to pick on for fireteam deconstruction Large base combined with short range weaponry and inability to prone makes it a target for people looking to snipe out a model. It's much easier to pick on to scalpel out that 5 man link bonus The shorter but much wider Silhouette creates travel problems for the rest of the link. Ladders, narrow staircases/walkways, vaulting obstacles or using vaults to traverse up and down buildings (many dumpsters in my terrain set actually create a pseudo staircase for vaulting S2 models when placed adjacent to buildings). While often fine at ground level, the Pango creates problems when the fireteams need to start traveling up and across elevated terrain alot of the time as many bridges and walkways are not big enough for a 55mm base to traverse. This is kinda a big deal and I'd wager it's why the Rudras was given Climbing+ to stop it being a burden to link teams. These are all reasons why the Pango FTO doesn't show up as a primary member for alot of my core Zuyong links. While not a bad option, there are drawbacks and if you don't like them the Shotgun Zuyong is the next in line for the job. This is something that we've been putting into practice Zuyong core 3 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38) ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34) SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 17) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29) MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) GROUP 2 1 1 WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 6 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army The idea is rather than going all in on crapload of TA orders going first and trying to stomp stuff, we build a more well rounded link with ARO options in it so the list is happier to go second if necessary. The idea is to grind with it, and everytime your opponent expends resources dropping a linked HI trooper you can possibly doctor them back up, or refill the link with more HI units and force them to start again. Lists can and will run out of steam trying to fight into this especially if they're the sort that pretty much entirely hinge on 1-2 models for their main active turn heavy lifting, see some of the 19-20 model Morat lists that are getting thrown around at the moment. I've been tinkering with that particular list debating removing the ML Zuyong for the MSV2 Haidao. Again, pros and cons to that. It heavily improves your game against smoke wielding enemies. The drawbacks are the Haidao takes fewer wounds to remove so he's harder for the doctor to keep in the game, and he makes juggling the link set up a bit awkward into Infowar. If you go second the Tinbot Haris needs to be with the KHD Haidao in a separate link to stop someone pitcher blasting him easily. Again, this one I feel is up to player choice. What I actually would've really appreciated is something like what Pan-O got for their support where there are different variants. I often find a list with 3-4pts left over to spend and the only thing to do with it is either upgrade Tai Sheng to CoC which is, meh, or put in another Yao Zao which again just feels meh. With the warband options missing for good reason, the army could've done with a few more cheap profile upgrades to just give a bit more flexibility when finishing off a list.
Wow dude, i know that some profiles are better than others but i think that what you are doign here are lots of absolute judgements, you could try the profiles in a diferent way. Deppend of the meta but the hacker porifle of the Liu Xin didn't work very bad compared with the others ( it will be hackable anyway, and some times you will need some specialist). The Zuyong missile launcher is the tipical HI rocket launcher option, it have his uses in a defensive haris or in a core as a first turn heavy exposed ARO. OFc all of this is subjective and deppend of the meta ( in mine Haidao MVS will be a must for example). The only option i dislike for the starter is the daoying sniper, i see it a lot more in vanilla than in IA,. Anyway they give you the CoC haidao to use it with the DAOYING leutinent...
The Liu Xing hacker will never see play because it opens up another avenue of attack against an already vulnerable piece. If you run into a killer hacker with the specialist operative profile you're totally fine, but with the AHD you open yourself to getting your brain melted with no way to defend yourself. AHD's just aren't worth taking unless you have a repeater network to protect it, which YJ doesn't.
These starter sets aren't designed with "pick these and play with them together" in mind. They're done to reduce SKU these days. The Zuyongs are so they don't have to release a Zuyong box, this starter pack is essentially the Zuyong SWC box with 3 other models tacked on. As for the Zuyong profiles, I find them all fine, see the previous post about using them. The Liu Xing, yeah, well he's shitty. The Daoying MSR is something I've been using in Vanilla in conjunction with Lunah and a Guilang MSR. It's been pretty good, actually liked it quite a bit. Using the LT orders to snipe stuff that can't shoot back effectively like TR bots, then palming the orders over later to an NCO has worked out well. As for the use in IA I think there's actually a build for it. You can actually spam a decent amount of Camo shenanigans if you want. 7 Camo markers for the list with a defensive link team support and you're still packing HI models that can pack a punch like Tai Sheng. Invincible Camo ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 DĀOYĪNG (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper, Antipersonnel Mines / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32) DĀOYĪNG Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 17) ZHANSHI Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 16) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) TAI SHENG (Chain of Command) Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 49) GROUP 2 3 DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper, Antipersonnel Mines / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army The Daoyings get FD1 and on exclusion zone missions that's actually as good as anyone can get. You can set up lists to fight on these missions. They're BS12 and have decent guns, they're solid enough to fight in the midfield and you still have BS14 doorkicker with a Mk12 if you need her.
The Liu xing will work fine as the plain BSG. The level of "it must be WYSIWIG" zealotry in here just feels like veiled outrage. Infinity has never had all the possible loadouts sculpted. As for the zuyong, if you think a zuyong missile is a garbage profile I struggle to believe you actually have the competence to making such final statements. It's middle road, only in some lists. But far, far,far from garbage. Again, maybe stop looking for reasons to be butthurt team, its getting thin.
It's simple, put less disirable models that are not that high on pick up list in starter, thus, when they release those profiles in blisters that people want, people will buy em ;)
It’s a garbage profile mate. I don’t care what mental gymnastics you put yourself through to convince yourself otherwise. Nor do I care about your “if you don’t like something from CB, then you’re unskilled”-argument, which is equally as dumb and similar to the the “if you don’t like Amy Schumer, then you’re a misogynist”-argument. You can make the Guija work.... it’s still a garbage profile. You can make the Sun Tze v2 work... it's still a garbage profile. You can make Shang-Ji work... it’s still a garbage unit. Etc. Etc. Also, the thing getting thin is your white knighting for CB. It’s impossible to look for something to be discontent about, when it’s CB themselves that throws it in our face.
@Zewrath It seemd from your posts in the "Current state of Yu-jing" thread that your meta has switched to the "hide everything" mindset, so yeah it's no wonder you don't value dedicated ARO profile like this one. However considering the abysmal DZ defense capabilities of IA we'll need to rely on this kind of unit to stop our opponents from storming our DZ and killing everything if we don't have the first turn, and the zuyong ML in a 5-man team happens to be one of our best unit for ARO purpose. It's quite hard to really rank them btw, they all have their pros and cons and how they impact fireteams flexibility and group organization is way too important to only rank them based on their firepower alone. For instance, i'd say the haidao MSV2 is probably the best in term of raw numbers, and he also double-up as a fantastic active turn piece, but he is kinda tricky to build fireteam around with his little brother the KHD being auto-include and them being limited to one-per-team.
Sucks to be you I guess. If a profile can work for someone, in some metas without needing to be janky. Then by definition it's actually not garbage. The fact you think things are garbage without trying them significantly means it's unlikely you're actually basing it on any kind of reality and that's what I'm calling out. If you think me calling out pessimistic bullshit is white knighting then more power to you
That's a pretty nifty list that I might try some variant of. Hadnt considered the daoying as support for midfield Zhencha thanks to bravery. Also liking the daoying MSR for vanilla. The mine + Camo bs12 sniper adds some much needed defense that lunah seemed a bit wasted on.
