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Invincible Army Pre Pre Mortom

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by atomicfryingpan, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. SpectralOwl

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    I would also add that Yu Jing provides Heavy Infantry solutions to nearly every battlefield role. If a player wants a particular kind of equipment, weapon or skill on a resilient platform, Yu Jing is more likely to have it then any other faction. If the mission doesn't require a TAG, Yu Jing's scoring pieces are the highest quality outside of the AI hive minds and are backed up with bonus activations to make up for the added cost.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Thats a relatively cynical way to look at it. Yeah, we can expect TA and NCO to appear in other armies. But theres a difference between a sprinkling and having it in spades.

    Combined with having a lot of Lt choices, yu jing are spoilt for choice playing the hide the Lt game.

    We do also provide toolbox profiles. These are naturally less forgiving and the forum meta definitely prefers the simple, cost effective and optimised profiles because its easy to see how they will work and its easy to visualise situations to apply them in. Many profiles in this game require gameplay and certain amount of synergy that takes experience to notice and utilise. Some are just poorly optimised for reasons, and so theres a lot of noise, so the simple is understandable.
     
  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I was rather surprised to see any Zuyong profiles with TacAwareness (I was hoping that the Shang Ji would get TacAwareness across the board).



    I know I'm certainly trying to build lists that run a mixed Core link and it keeps ending up 9-10 models 12-14 orders. I'd really like to get both a Zhencha and a Liu Xing in the same list (or two Zhencha), but I keep going back to the Daoying, Tai Sheng NCO CoC, Zuyong TacA HMG, Zuyong TacA Tinbot, Haidao KHD as the core of the list (granted, that's like 9 orders already).

    But I keep running out of points to have more than three models outside the link. Usually Haidao Engineer (KHD is in the link), the Zhencha SMG, and either a Zanshi Doc or a Weibing REM. Daoying doesn't count because it's hiding with pride.



    Yeah, that's the problem. I can get a Yan Huo HRMC for 54pts. It's nowhere near as fast as the Guijia, but I've never felt the speed lacking in the Yan Huo.





    I really struggle to include 2 Zhencha. And that's a different sort of problem.



    Yeah, I think the KHD in the Core link is going to be there as the terrifying idea of "attempt to hack anything else and you're at minus lots and facing a KHD on normal rolls, attempt to hack the KHD and it's ARO will still likely kill you."



    That's the problem. People will quickly figure out that they need to kill certain models first, even if those aren't the obvious targets.
     
    Kallas likes this.
  4. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Likewise.
    Likewise.
     
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  5. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think YuJing is at any sort of loss of identity. I think they still are and have been the heavy infantry faction. What that means is up to interpretation but I dont think it's some deep entrenched thing the faction has to adhere to. The melee faction part of YJ was always the Japanese and it ways felt like a secondary thing to me anyways.

    As far as link teams I think we shouldn't overlook the missile but and shotgun bot that can wildcard in to help us save points.
     
    A Mão Esquerda and AngryPanda like this.
  6. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The whole 'melee being a Japanese thing' consideration doesn't hold any weight until we stop paying that asinine CC tax.

    That said, I find Yu Jing's identity lies in being solid at just about everything, and having enough versatility across the faction to employ those well-rounded toolkits in novel and effective ways, albeit at a cost for that versatility.
     
    Alphz, Triumph and Kallas like this.
  7. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, except that's part of the identity of both ISS and IA units. Crane, Hsien, Pheasant, Kanren, Hulang, and Hac Tao invest into it. Even the Guijia gets into it. JSA were the best at it, but far from the only ones.

    And of course, those who aren't appreciably good at it still pay the CC tax.

    The versatility seems to ring hollow when Nomads start winning straight up firefights with the Kriza.
     
    Kallas likes this.
  8. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Active turn shooters have a huge advantage anyway. If you aren't beating a Kriza in ARO, were you beating the Intruder in ARO? Nomads have always had decent firepower and bs mods, they're the only five man linked ODD faction in the game.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  9. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Quite. The aims of competitive players for ever more optimised pieces, compared with games designers for balance don't always pull in the same direction. Power lies along a spectrum, with optimal performance tending towards the overpowered end.
     
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  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I had my first try out of IA on Saturday. List below.

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    TAI SHENG (Chain of Command) Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 49)
    HǍIDÀO Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 17)
    ZHĒNCHÁ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 41)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    HÚLÁNG (Fireteam: Duo) 2 Submachine Gun, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 41)

    5 SWC | 297 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Mission: Supremacy

    Vs. Hassasin Barahm

    IA with first turn

    The first thing that was immediately apparent was: who was going to have control of the stupid Xenotech? I had a pre-made a list and nothing that could start out with the Xenotech. So I decided that I would have it near my Daoying Lt.+HD and later would need to un-camo and link up with the Xenotech. In hindsight after the game I realized that I should have connected to the Hulang. I could have him just short of the full FD2 while the XT was behind him in the DZ. I could have moved up, dragging the XT along with him. This is something to be thought of when making the list. Have someone dedicated to it or try to connect with it later. I got -1 victory point because I never did the XT.

    Next, I was going up against HB with 4 Mutts! Man I hate those guys. They are horrible against everything. Even my Zhencha I found out is afraid because Jammer’s can intuitive attack! When going against them, be ready to try to take them out early. I think it might have actually been better to go second and kill them in ARO. But I went first and had to go towards them. 2 were taken out in my turn and second 2 in ARO. But these guys with Jammers and E/Marats are going to be no fun. One of the ones I killed in ARO was still able to immobilize Tai Sheng. Thankfully I had a Haidao Eng. At first I had the KHD but changed him to the Eng just before the game started. I unfortunately gave my opponent the idea of using Yasbir to look like three more Mutts. That can really mess with someones deployment if you see seven Mutts.

    The mission required my moving up to get zones. The Son-Bae in the link was a bad choice for this. I lost the good range for it because I moved up with the team. But I didn’t know the mission when I made the list. I think with IA, it’s going to be even more important to know the mission ahead of time. It’s possible to do an “all comers” list but it’s not going to be easy.

    I loved Tactical Awareness even though the Zuyong had to be the leader to do it, that wasn’t too bad. I made sure to use the TA orders before going into the regular pool. The same with the NCO. Zuyong are really good I think. I liked them before but I think now I’m in love. They will be geat in both IA and Vanilla. In fact I think you are going to see a lot more of them. They might become a must have. Unfortunately It's only going to be those two. I'll be surprised if you see a missile launcher or Multi-Rifle often.

    How many orders you have is open information! That includes having 2 Lt. orders. So it’s a dead give-away as to who your Lt. is if they have a small knowledge of IA. No wonder they gave the Daoying Camo! It was unfortunately one of many casualties to the Asawira spitfire. I took Tai Sheng with CoC but I still went in LoL in the second turn because TS was hit with an E/Marat. Still, I like the Daoying. It's a good ceap Lt. and still good fighter. I do wish there was a little more variety on the weapons though. Especially something that has suppressive fire ability.

    The Zehncha was, ok. I had to watch out for Mutts and couldn’t get too close to do anything against them. Thank goodness I was going first. I’ve got to remember that an intuitive attack is a full order skill so no ARO. He can use the jammer if you shoot him in the zone but he can’t use it until then. I’d get surprise shot but Mutts have a WIP15, not a big loss for them. Then it’s just mutual death in a bad way. He loses a 5pt. guy and I have a 37pt. statue with a target painted on him. He died later to an Asawira spitfire. At least he put a mine down to make him use an order to discover and destroy it. But so far the Zehncha was meh. But of course that’s just this game.

    I was able to get the Hulang up into zones on his side and got him into suppression fire with the SMG. Again, I had to wait until Mutts were gone before I could move up. Unfortunately he was also killed by the Asawira spitfire. I want to use it again because it didn’t really get to do much but create a speed bump. He did at least work well at that.

    Having the Haidao ENG really helped and saved Tai Sheng from being a statue for the rest of the game. I’m thinking the ENG is needed a lot more than a KHD or MSR. So far I like the Haidao. It’s just too bad the Free Agent skill will hardly ever be used in IA, but I’m looking forward to using him in Vanilla. I think he’s going to be a good replacement for the Bao MSR. He’s more expensive but has better BS, NWI, ARM3.

    So far I really like Tai Sheng. Quite the tool box with FO, CoC, HI, Vet (character), Good shot with good weapons too. Though I’m not sure when stun grenades will ever be used but I’ll take it. This is a character that I’ll use a lot I think in IA or Vanilla.

    The mission was a Victory for Invincible Army 3-2. It would have been better if I had done the Xenotech.

    Some other thoughts about IA in general

    This mission has a bonus point for TAGs. I really love the Guijia figure old and new. But I never take it. There are so many other things that can be just as good for cheaper points. I want to know who the hell would EVER take the Lt.? I’m sure some might for the hell of it or just to be contradictory and they don’t expect to win with it. But who would pay 3SWC for a Lt. TAG that costs the same points as the regular one. If he had Lt. 2, Stratego, Tactical Awareness, gave you +1 SWC like a Hsien, then, maybe he’d be worth taking! If you say that having CoC means you don’t know to worry about Loss of Lt., well, the loss of an 88pt TAG makes me feel much worse than being in LoL. Also, from the lists I tried making with him, pretty much everything depended on him being a Rambo. I couldn’t afford to take things to support him. I’m sure it would be much better in Vanilla with access to some more troops. Like some of said, I think CB missed an opportunity to make the Guijia into something people want to take instead of feeling they have to take him to achieve a mission objective.

    I really wanted to like the Shang Ji. But Every time I put him in I ended up replacing it with Zuyong. Either the HMG with TA, or Combi/Tinbot. In an army that is really tight for points, he just keeps getting squeezed out. At most I can see taking him in a Zhanshi link but that’s only because he, Haidao and Son-Bae are only things that can. I’d also hesitate to take the 2SWC weapons too. Again, I think this was a missed opportunity by CB. If the new figure is really awesome I’ll probably use it for anything other than what it’s supposed to be.

    BTW I was looking at the Yan Huo and some were talking about putting a Haidao or Shang Ji in the link but I hate to tell you the Special Harris says specifically it’s has to be made up of the Haris Zuyong and exactly 2 FTO Yan Huo. No more, no less. I’m used to this with Ikari and their weird teams. So if anyone in the link goes down, there’s no reforming the link without that exact group. None of those guys can be replaced by a different Zuyong, or Shang Ji, or Haidao.

    I’m looking forward to trying the Mowang. I think he will make a great Data Tracker and/or Xenotech handler. Certainly will be interesting in missions where the DT gets an extra order! If I were to Duo him, I’m not sure what would be good, another Mowang comes to mind first. See above for Shang Ji. But this is one of the things he could be useful. The Tinbot SJ would make this team invicible to hacking almost. Otherwise the Haidao ENG, so that he can help the Mowang if immobilized, also to get him up to do some things with D-Charge. The Baggage bot actually seems good for getting the bot into areas the baggage is useful maybe for possible re-load but that is very situational.

    I don’t feel bad about them not changing Zhanshi. The AVA4 was what I was expecting. However, I feel they will not be used much unless taking the Guij or Hac Tao. They are similar to my Keisotsu in Ikari with the teams. They can take a Tanko and Brawler. The Tanko Missile with Brawler MSR with MSV fireteam is fantastic! I may try similar with 3 Zhanshi, Son-Bae or Shang Ji Rocket, and Haidao MSR. It’s a good cheap defensive unit.
     
    zapp, Joametz, Section9 and 4 others like this.
  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I guess I'm wrong about something. A Wildcard can replace a troop in a fireteam. So, in the Yan Huo haris, one of the YH can be repalced by a Wildcard. But the the Haris trooper can't be replaced?
     
    Maksimas likes this.
  12. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    This was confirmed in the rules forum, though with respect to Yadu haris in particular. Wildcards can replace any models in a special fire team haris as long as at least one haris is there to fulfill the basic haris requirement.
     
  13. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. Well that's pretty cool I guess. Great way to buff the YH and not take up so much SWC.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    At a certain point, though, a faction's gimmick can't be "lots of unoptimized pieces."
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the Battle Report!
     
    Space Ranger likes this.
  16. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I don't think it's just about being overpowered.

    When theorising a units application, a player is very rarely looking at how it might perform in sub-optimal conditions because the assumption is you need to avoid those to play well.

    However, I think Infinity is a great game as it often forces players into determining the best outcome when left with tools not necessarily fit for the job.

    Hence, a list full of optimal profiles can actually get into a death spiral really quickly when faced with a problem the units lack any tool to deal with.

    A good opponent will look to disarm you of the best tools you have. And good game design looks to include units which can fulfill several roles in unideal conditions, but not perfectly, and only include a few choice profiles.
     
  17. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    The specified Haris trooper can be replaced so long as there is still an FT: Haris model in the link. So you could replace the Zuyong Haris with a Shang Ji Haris, in this case.
     
  18. gorin

    gorin Well-Known Member

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    Well, starter is sooooooo bad, even worst than i expect. But after some good rules and all sectorial is not bad at all - we can forgive it
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Starter's been announced? I thought content was still not set?
     
  20. gorin

    gorin Well-Known Member

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    its on preorder in few shops, with other january releases