1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Invincible Army Pre Pre Mortom

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by atomicfryingpan, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    2,164
    L
    Is it possible you didn't bring the right tools though? What happened to the Zhencha?

    I find the temptation strong to take a link and a mowang, but realistically you're just doubling down on slight variations of beatstick.

    Not actually saying you messed up, there can be situations where you're left on a rock and a hard place, and I actually think you're more likely to with sectorials generally. Some more the others. Because by design they have less options.
    I'm not fully convinced your one particular situation really reinforces the IA is exceptionally vulnerable to terrain.

    Also what mission absolutely requires you to get to the hvt so much that it was a safe bet for your opponent to double down on protecting it?
     
  2. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    471
    SJTASF (just going to start using acronyms, see how stupid this gets! :smirk: ) is...ok. The main problem is that it's pretty much a mediocre beatstick unit in a beatstick sectorial; its only advantage over equivalents is being a Wildcard, but considering the options available that's not particularly great. The Mowang is a better beatstick, and has NCO for similar order shenanigans; Zuyong have the TAHMG profile, so the SJTASF is essentially irrelevant for the Zuyong Core (which will likely be common) - or the Duo/Haris that may be taken, plus the ZYTAHMG is cheaper than the SJTASF, which is notable for the tight budget of IA.

    Having the LFT is nice, but it's not really enough to sell the Shang Ji alone. If you're putting it in a Core, it's probably a Zhanshi Core for a cheap beatstick HI heading it up; you're not putting it in the Zuyong Core, because they can slap one in themselves for cheaper; and in the Duos and Haris' of IA, it's just too expensive for inclusion off the cuff - a SJ TinBot B is 40|0 minimum. A Mowang isn't going to drag one of those around - it'd be better to have a Pango FTO, so that the Daoying HD/Haidao KHD that is probably in the list already (and either Pango + Daoying HD[or]Haidao KHD is cheaper, or equivalent than a single SJ TBB, while packing in more orders/utility/both) can utilise the Repeater.

    And please let's not bring the Shang Ji AHD into this, it's awful. 43|0.5 and a Combi+LFT is just not worthwhile. That's not even touching upon the terribleness of the AHD.

    For Camo, I agree that that's probably the best place for the Shang Ji's LFT, but that's a tough niche for the Shang Ji to fill, considering its cost. You could take a Hulang Combi+LFT instead, for a very similar cost, but it instead gains: FD2, to get to grips with midfield camo spam quicker; packs the same LFT; has CC to fight off Warbands; D-Charges for anti-materiel duty; E/M Grenades for anti-HI/TAG/Isolation duty; and a Mono CCW for killing TAGs/other nasties. And Hulang are a weird one too!

    Other anti-Camo options: we're probably going to be using Chaiyi quite a bit, as 8|0 orders are pretty great for filling out the last slot in the Combat Group; and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to slot in either a Weibing to take advantage of the Sniffers the Chaiyi has, or bring along a Rui Shi, because it's still a great, cheap gun platform with Assisted Fire. We do have the Haidao MSV2 MSR, which isn't terrible at anti-Camo: in a Zuyong Core it'll have the +1B/+3BS/SSL2, so it will be Discovering well, it'll be reacting well, and it's still surrounded by a bunch of other HI in the same way.

    Tai Sheng, pretty much a staple unit of IA already, has a Chain-colt, which is worse than an LFT, but not by a huge amount; the Lu Duan has a HFT, and HP2 for rooting out mines; the Zhencha SMG has AP Mines for counter-camo tactics. The Zhencha and Tai Sheng, particularly, are a more natural fit in IA and so are much easier to slot into a list - Tai Sheng will power up the Zuyong Core in multiple ways (NCO, BS14, FO, Mk12[or]Combi+TBB), and the Zhencha SMG is a good, mobile midfielder.

    I love the Shang Ji. I have tried to use it numerous times over the years (albeit in Vanilla, but since basically nothing has changed for it, that's 90% irrelevant), and I have a deep seated love for it as it played a major part in selling me on Yu Jing, instead of Haqq. I don't think it's crap because I want to think it's crap; I would dearly love for it to be great, but I sincerely think it's a lame duck and the new changes are not even a bandaid fix, they're a kiss on the forehead in hopes that the leg just reattaches itself...

    It is fast, tough and shooty. But it's also a bullet magnet - due to its size, it will draw more AROs than normal and it will have a harder time restricting access to it. That isn't a negligible downside; it doesn't completely kill it, of course, but it can't be ignored either.

    But really, Yu Jing has no dearth of heavy hitting units that cost a significant amount less. Mowang, Yan Huo, Hac Tao, hell even Rui Shi with buffs are hitting very hard and aren't absorbing as much of a given lists limited resources, and none are as big a blow when they go down.


    Zhencha are probably going to have to put in a lot of work as a speed bump unit, and as you say IA almost certainly wants to go first to build up momentum or else its at risk of getting hit in the face and going down.

    We do have some Stealth from the Zhencha, Hulang, Hac Tao (also the Daoying), but not a huge amount - although those units are pretty potent in their own ways. Zhencha and Hulang will be starting close to enemies that want to nail them indirectly (Hackers/Repeaters and Minelayers/Jammers), plus the Zhencha has a Marker state for additional stealth defence.

    IA AHD/KHD access is pretty limited. We only have the Shang Ji (AHD: bad), Hac Tao (decent KHD, if Repeaters are present: so those Pango FTOs are good!), Zhencha (AHD: meh), Liu Xing (AHD: bad), and Haidao (KHD: not sold yet, as BTS0 is horrible for a Hacking duel) - so realistically we have maybe two options? Haidao and Hac Tao: one is very fragile, the other is expensive.

    While Deflector L2 is almost certainly going to be present in a Core, it's not going to be everywhere - most notably, it's not going to be floating around in any of the Duos or Haris' that we can pack in, such as a Mowang isn't going to pay 40pts to have a Shang Ji follow it around; it's much better off bringing along a Pango LSG which will give the Hac Tao/Haidao KHD extra range.

    Now, I don't think Hacking down IA will be easy, but it's far from impenetrable (and realistically it shouldn't be impenetrable, but as the premier HI army in the Sphere it should be extremely tough).

    Our AHD options are...bad, which does present something of a problem, as it means our active infowar is either carried out by a regular HD/EVO (Zhanshi, Daoying or EVO Pangguling) or solely by KHD's in a direct anti-Hacker manner, which is a bit fraught considering it's either the Haidao (BTS 0) or the Hac Tao (expensive to risk in a duel, although Stealth/Surprise Shot and Panggo FTOs can certainly help - it's still expensive!). I think it will probably turn out to be worthwhile running the Haidao KHD simply to act as a lightning rod: people will likely see the KHD and focus on it more than the rest of the Hackable units, simply because it might try to attack, but it's probably best off being passive and trying to absorb attacks against more important/expensive HI.
     
    ambisinister and Paegis like this.
  3. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2018
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    248
    Jammers are annoying for us HI lovers, I know, but there are ways to go around them. Granted, most of them involve spending limited resources but then again that could also be said about pretty much anything in the game.

    In IA, it seems like our best options involve finding LoF from outside their ZoC by spending those sweet Tactical Awareness orders, or using Intuitive Attacks with big teardrop templates (Heavy Flamethrowers on Guijia/Lu Duan). You can also chunk speculative fire at them, but I'm not a fan.
     
  4. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2018
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    248
    Guys: seeing as Jammer is a BS Attack (Comms Attack), a FtF roll against a Zhencha surprise-firing would apply a -3 MOD on the jammering troop, right? To it's WIP roll.
     
  5. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    203
    Likes Received:
    445
    Surprise shot yes, nothing from the mimetism.

    N3 Frequently Asked Question FAQ Version: 1.3, Oct 2017
    Q: When performing an Attack with a Jammer, is the roll affected by the negative MOD of ODD or Camouflage, for example?
    A: No, in the case of an attack that does not require LoF, the negative MODs are not applied.
    Related Pages: Camouflage and Hiding (CH), Jammer, ODD
     
  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    2,164
    Ah, it should. But knowing jammer it probably has an exception baked in.
     
  7. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    930
    I checked, if it does have an exception it is ludicrously well hidden. Funnily enough, it looks like Spotlight can also be used to create a face-to-face roll, albeit one with worryingly low odds of success compared to most Jammers. Might come in handy for anyone actually using a Shang Ji Assault Hacker, should they have a Smart Missile Launcher handy. Furthermore I don't think Isolation affects Tactical Awareness, so leading with a troop who has it will give them a spare order to kill off the Jammer so the Engineer can move up safely and remove the Isolation, if it even manages to stick.
     
    SKOZZOKONZ likes this.
  8. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    1,015
    Likes Received:
    1,078
    Jammer is a "No LoF" weapon, so it ignores the visual mods but wouldn't ignore Surprise unless it also had Sixth Sense.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,462
    Likes Received:
    8,035
    Decapitation. The LT was even more inaccessible.

    Didn't bring Zhencha, and with 20-20 hindsight it's very hard to tell if that was the correct choice. Losing first turn left me few places to hide. Louie would've been the correct choice in all matches considering I was the only one in all three bringing a regular hacker, but Louie can't be DT. Nomad player had an Intruder HMG that kept a close eye on the entrance and facade from the other side of the play field, but Intruder never revealed since it only got to face off against Mowang. Mowang performed well, but naturally the Zuyong performed better. Mowang has a weird mix of weapons, not sure I like it. I was missing a DTW a lot more than it felt like the Flammenspeer felt like an asset, and as always it often feels like the Spitfire lacks punch.

    But yeah, I did mess up in choosing attack direction. Not having models and having barely any time to build lists prior to even (as in I got a call when on train to get there asking if I had models with me so I could play) left me taking up way too long deploying and ended up playing only 2 turns, so time pressure made me make mistakes in that regard.

    (The second game I was simply owned by an Anathematic. It happens. Plasma Rifles on TO are hax)
     
  10. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    780
    Only one game under my belt this far, but the feeling i had was that IA could actually afford a fairly high number of casualties for a list with 10 models, as long as the NCO and TacAw guys were safe. Hell, you can even throw link members to the wolves, with those wilcards everywhere it's not that hard to reform a full 5-man team, and if you can't a daoying + Tai Sheng and the 2 TacAw zuyongs is still 8 orders.
    In other words, everything that doesn't generate 2 orders could actually be seen as disposable if the tools it brings aren't needed, or once it has done what you wanted him to do.

    My only issue ATM is that everything is so expensive, and yet they all have tools you might need if you face a particular opponent. Zencha as a rooftop hunter and Haidao KHD to deal with hacking are pretty much auto-include if you don't know what you're going to face and/or play in an unfamilliar meta which leaves very little room for things like a Liu-xing or a Hulang, let alone a yan-huo or mowang who could actually be used as roadblocks.
    It makes me think that maaaaaaaaybe building lists for the mission might not be the right thing to do for IA, at least not if you bring the zuyong pain-train, as you'll probably end-up with only one list and still not all the tools you need to deal with whatever your opponent might throw at you.
     
  11. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    523
    Likes Received:
    438
    It seems to me like a lot of the discontent comes from missed opporutines and not meeting expectations more than putting out a mechanically weak sectorial. IA works. The profiles are serviceable and the rules are competitive. You can bring IA an win games and do well, I’ve no doubt about that, but a sectorial and a release need more than that, and as I’ve mentioned before, the cards were stacked against this one from the start. Post uprising, we were told the removal of the Japanese profiles was going to open up design space. The only profile that really met that expectation was the Daoying. Yu Jing hasn’t really had anything like that before and combined with the new rules it added a new strategic style and new tactical options. The other releases don’t quite do the same thing.

    The Mowang is a different style of hammer in a sectorial full of hammers; it’s quite good, but it doesn’t give us anything new.

    The Liu Xing is a slightly different tiger. I think it’s the biggest culprit for a missed opportunity. Explode is a fun gimmick, but it would have been made better if the Liue Xing leaned into it. I know I’ve said this a few times, but if they made it a CQB specialist and competent melee combatant it’d entice us to actually use AD4 and drop it on someone’s head instead of just walking on a board edge and it’d make a drastically different tool from the tiger.

    The Zencha again is competent but isn’t different enough from the Guilang or the Dao Fei to excite. It’s only got one stand out profile and doesn’t really let us do anything we couldn’t before.

    The Hulang is the only other profile besides the Daoying that pays out on promises. It’s load outs are exciting, it brings back some capabilities to the faction that we lost, and the tactical options it provides are enough to set up different strategic styles. It’s a shame its much more valuable in vanilla than IA, but it is added value to the faction.

    The Haidao are solid, but another missed opportunity. Setting aside their nonsensical stat line, i like the idea of a wildcard specially options to increase the tactical flexibility of links, i just don’t think they took it far enough. This would have been a great unit to put some exotic gear on. For example, some of the more niche disposable or perimeters weapons or grenade launchers or weapons with wacky ammo to round out the engineer and kid profiles would have been choice. The limit of one per fireteam and no core or Haris option of their own only reinforces to me that this is the design space CB wanted them to fill.

    I think the most disappointing part to me is that IA’s profiles and tweaks didn’t really do anything to shape or flesh out Yu Jing’s identity as a faction and CB didn’t take the opportunity of the release to fix iconic but saddly irrelevant troops like the Shang Ji or the Guija. As others have said, I also share the fear that NCO/Tac Aware order efficiency stuff isn’t really an identity so much as a “IA happened to get it first so we can see how it plays out.” and it will be a staple in factions to come.
     
  12. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2017
    Messages:
    480
    Likes Received:
    809
  13. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    I don't think anyone knows at this point?
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  14. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    523
    Likes Received:
    438
    Well, that’s sort of the problem, as @Maksimas suggested we’ve kind of lost it. “Oh, they’re the CC faction” was always sort of the thing in 2nd ed coming into 3rd. We did have a lot of mid range and short range versatility and options when we had the Japanese profiles. The drastically different play styles between ISS and JSA led to some nice diversity in faction as well as giving a lot of strategic flexibility in Vanilla that not too many other factions really did. Now, ISS is “let’s use a lot of orders from a lot of bodies to power our expensive specialists and top of the line gun fighters” and IA is “let’s use a lot of orders from a small amount of bodies to power our expensive specialists and top of the line gun fighters.” That doesn’t sound like nearly as much diversity as when we had ISS and JSA, does it? As a consequence Vanilla is now just a lot of different ways to accomplish similar strategies, you just need to pick which flavor you want to roll with.


    The only shred of indemnity we’ve seem to have kept is the toolboxy nature of our signature profiles. I think the most prominent displays of that is when you compare the Swiss and Aquila to the Hac Tao and Hsien. Our guys are slightly less competent gunfighters but have a lot of added value in extra gear or skills. The Crane is another good example of that. The Zhanying and Pheasants follow a similar philosphy though not quite as efficiently. We can look at the Kanren and our combat remotes as well. You’ll notice that a lot of the stuff i’m mentioning is popular 2E units that got facelifts in 3E and the bulk of them are ISS. The other side of our faction’s coin is gone and what we gon in return, in some ways, feels like the old 2E style palatte swaps of the stuff we already had.
     
    Kallas, Furiat and Paegis like this.
  15. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    2,164
    Probably command and control, as well as a heavy for every role.

    Yu Jing now seem to pack a plethora of active swc Lt and several profiles where a model could be the Lt. Along with executive order, there's a lot of functionality.

    Now we can top it off with NCO and tactical awareness.

    I think we can pack some of the biggest sticks, as well as multiple of them into a list which still packs 16 orders.

    IA turns that up to 12, sacrificing some of flexibility of units of vanilla to be a flexible force.
     
    Paegis likes this.
  16. Scutarii

    Scutarii Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    32
    From my - uninformed, uncompetitive, casual - opinion Yu Jing feel like the bully faction. Heavy, pressure fighters. They get good to competent troops right up into your face. Attacking you where you are weak AND where you are strong and forcing you to deal with them.

    Be it a midfield filled with mines from Guilang with an MSV1 combi on supression, hidden Daofei or Ninja from Vanilla. To ISS jamming elite HI with visors and sensors and sniffers right down your throat, ignoring all your tricks and forcing you to just gunfight them. To IA doing away with tricks like smoke, nimbus or otherwise and instead sticking a linked Yan Huo on a roof just sweeping them clear while mobile troops vault right into you or pushing again and again with a HI link team that's sticking 2w or pseudo-2w bodies on corners on suppression forcing you to deal with them to get anything.

    It's less of a Haqq style 'if I go there they can counter by going to there...' kind of thing and instead 'I cannot even go there until I've dealt with 3 overlapping HI on suppression, in cover'

    Order efficiency in fireteams is one thing, but having enough in there means also freeing up command tokens for combined orders to get the rest of the army moving about in a semi-link team too. 1 token and 1 order to move the ~4 models you have that aren't already in a link team gets them forward and involved early on.
     
  17. Paegis

    Paegis Vincible

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    75
    Tactical awareness and NCO are pretty likely to start spreading out among other factions though. Do you think Yu Jing will still retain the command and control identity once that happens?

    I like the idea of YJ being a toolbox faction too - I remember seeing that statement once and it stuck with me, and I picked a part-blue colour scheme for that reason heh.
     
  18. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    930
    I suspect the command thing will be spread about, especially NCO, but I also suspect that the Invincible Army will have better access to it than anyone else. Morats have NCO on what the forum's players say is the worst Raktorak profile, and Tactical Awareness on the Suryat HMG, which limits them to maybe three bonus orders max. Varuna have NCO on their special character, who has a short-range gun and situational grenades. OSS has LT2 and NCO, but you need to pay for an Asura that is pricier than some TAGs and a 40pt Yadu NCO on top of that. Meanwhile, IA has Tinbot B+Haris and SWC weapon profiles with Tactical Awareness on two units, a camoflaged LT2 with a very low price, Hacking Device or a support weapon and Minelayer, and no less than seven profiles with NCO. Two of these NCO profiles, on Tai Sheng, even have Chain of Command. Which means that the enemy can kill your LT, Tai becomes LT and can still spend the LT order as a regular order. Somehow, I don't see this degree of order shenanigans becoming commonplace, though I'll be happy if it does because I have an unreasonable love for single combat groups.
     
    Henshini, Kallas, Maksimas and 2 others like this.
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes Received:
    2,643
    From my experience it appears to be their only gimmick besides paying for stupid CC stats on stuff, is order spam. My vanilla lists regularly beat Ariadna for model count, and IA has more orders than you'd expect for an elite army even currently compared to Morats who also picked up Tactical Awareness.
     
    SpectralOwl likes this.
  20. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    780
    Yeah Yu-jing is clearly the "order shenanigan" faction now, with a bit of CC as cultural heritage.
     
    Section9 likes this.