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Invincible Army Pre Pre Mortom

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by atomicfryingpan, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    Squaro?
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think any of the new IA profiles are bad, I just have some serious doubts as to whether the whole they make is not filled with weaknesses more than strengths. As much as I am charmed by some of the offerings in terms of fireteams in particular, I'm much less charmed about the performance and how easy it is to actually set up some real hard counters.

    As it is, I'm not sure I agree that the Zhencha would be out of place in one of the Nomad sectorials, you just need a name swap and a bit of a different justification for the abilities. I mean, it's not like the Zhencha would individually perform any different in Nomads as it does in vanilla Yu Jing, seeing how Yu Jing isn't exactly short on orders if they don't choose to.
     
  3. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    What are some of the weaknesses and vulnerabilities designed into the sectorial? I feel like these guys have a great balance to them. I think the zuyong fireteam is probably the best fireteam for my playstyle there are other builds that will work.
     
  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I'm not sure what weaknesses they have that aren't covered by strengths. Orders? Shit tons mate. Shooters? Hac Tao, efficiently linked HI, core linkable MSV2 sniper. Infowar? Linkable AHDs and KHDs in Deflector L2 links. Good LT options? Lol where do I start.

    Good anti-warband and piece exchange? High ARM troops that can soak a chain rifle and put the warbands down. Objective grabbing? Midfield skirmisher that grabs objectives very well, drop troop specialist, cheap FO line troops...

    Like they aren't just another boring Sectoral, they don't play like a light skirmish warband force, they're interesting and tacticool, and they're drawing people in heavily in my local area. The response to IA on here from some people is... bewildering. Like if you think IA looks weak, are we even playing the same games?
     
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  5. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

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    I do agree that IA are looking solidly competitive, though I will also say that I'm saddened/disappointed by some of the missed opportunities and some of the odd units.

    Missed opportunities:
    • Shang Ji is 99% irrelevant
    • Guijia is lame (not necessarily bad, but boring and overshadowed by the sectorial as a whole)
    Odd designs (may be good or bad, but this is just about them being difficult to understand why they are this way):
    • Zhencha: the only not Shock Immune HI. Probably balance, but makes the sectorial feel uncoordinated.
    • Liu Xing/Zhencha: quite a lot of dead profiles, making them either fairly bland or not particularly useful.
    • Haidao: why BTS0?
    • Tigers/Daofei: seriously, why not?
    I am definitely happy with the overall potency of the sectorial, and it has some great features like the variety of units and their inter-linkability. Some units are strong all rounders (Mowang, Zuyong) with others being good specialised troops (Daoying). There's just an undercurrent of disconnectedness that takes away from the whole - not entirely, and not enough to make IA not good, but it is awkward.

    I would say that those who think IA is weak are few and far between - that's how I believe the forum community appears to be taking the release, anyway.
     
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  6. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Shang Ji TacSense Spitfire is a great profile. Get that bad boy in a Zhanshi link with a MSV2 Sniper, it'll kick ass.

    Guija is not super exciting no. It is fast, tough and shooty though. TAGs are s thing the game in general doesn't accommodate that well I think.

    The sense of disconnectness, well, I can't argue against that. If that's the feel you get then that's the feel you get. It's a shame and I don't share it, but fair enough. I will say that I think some people expected it to all be "pure" HI and I don't think that would have been workable, what they got was much more useable on the board.
     
  7. Bobblehead

    Bobblehead Well-Known Member

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    Shang Ji is relevant since its on of the few sources of a direct template weapon to deal with/threaten infiltration CH markers and ODD units like Steel Phalanx if you dont brig the Rui shi.

    The MSV2 sniper wont cut it since its a static piece and can just be ignored, bypassed or in the case of the Phalanx eclipsed to irrelevance.

    Weakens of IA is that it doesent have any speed bump units. Going to have a harder time vs things like jammers since they dont have access to units with stealt, veteran or cheap throw away units to deal with them.
    Units like Dart is going to be frightening to face if your using the Daoying LT Lvl2 since there isnt much to stop here from going to were she wants. Things like Kiran bots is also going to be hard to face whit IA.

    Playing IA your probably going to want to go first to take advantage of your higher than normal start order count/combat group and trying to take out the threatening pieces to your force while they are easier to get to. You really need to be the bully when playing IA. :)
     
    #427 Bobblehead, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  8. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it is vulnerable to its order structure being picked apart. You can run 15 orders in ten guys but if they drop your NCO and a TacSense guy that's five orders gone, not two. It's not a piecetrade force and it wants to minimalise casualties. And that's fine you know, they need some sort of limitation.

    Against Phalanx I think you want to be getting as many AROs as you can, forcing weight of dice to slow their advance, getting the dominant firing positions and using your ARM in cover to bounce those Spitfires and such.

    Playing SP is weird though. And you know I've not seen anyone do so for ages!
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hard to combat Jammers - with few and inconvenient grenade launchers, Jammers are a big problem for this sectorial. The sectorial doesn't build well around Zhanshi and Light Grenade Launchers are very expensive on light infantry most of the time with Zhanshi not being an exception.

    Expensive troops - with very few troops in the low bracket and essentially none in the points bracket between 16 and 30, it's difficult to make lists focusing on something that's not a HI pain train.

    Highly pronounced vulnerability to HD and AHD - having Tinbot B is one thing, being able to do something about the repeater is an entirely different subject. Even with a low chance of getting isolated, a Repeater can easily shut down most IA operations and means that the limited space for the Haidao gets usurped by the KHD profile on a basis that's frankly disheartening.

    Easy to spot key troops - some troops account for a very large amount of orders. Building IA lists have a strong tendency to be very similar to vanilla lists with only two real attack troopers (such as dual TAG lists), but with the exception that a TAG in those lists tend to have mimetism or better along with significantly higher ARM and STR.

    As an illustration, in one of my matches yesterday I ended up with 5 isolated HI when trying to get past Mary and a Heckler. Mary wasn't even using a Repeater. It was impossible to attack them because they were holed up on the second and third floor of a building. Of course I should have avoided them and taken the fight head on to the Kriza on the other side of the compound, but time was running out and I needed to kill that HVT now that my Mowang was down.

    I don't know, I'm not charmed with the sum total of the composition of IA. It doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling of opportunities that ISS or OSS does (or Ikari would if their fluff didn't put me off cold hard). I just have a premonition that IA will end up being an alright sectorial just like how MO was an alright sectorial a month ago.
    Basically it's direly missing an under-appreciated and poorly equipped skirmisher that have to do with whatever left over equipment that the real invincibles considers too obsolete to use. The kind of operative that does the dirty wet work that's beneath the poster children of the Yu Jing empire. You know, recon patrol, listening post maintenance, cowardly sniping, that sort of jazz. Something that actually can get under the radar. An inglorious bastard.
     
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  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Janmers are on three troops in the game, two of them are 20-30pt camo guys who are close to their DZ. They are good but they are not that hard to deal with. And five man LGLs are good for it, you've got a couple. More than many get!

    I wouldn't say that lists that can take Deflector L2 links with AHDs and KHDs can really say they struggle to deal with Hacking. They can kill and Blackout Repeaters, they have access to two KHD options and that is more than many Sectorals get. And in that situation a well placed Mary Problems is going to be effective: she should be. Should a well placed Mary Problems be ineffective against a HI heavy force? Of course not. That's a feature not a bug. I'm a big hacking player, I take loads of hacking. IA is not going to be a cakewalk when it's links are all Tinbotted up and it has SSL2 KHDs in them too, and hidden TO Camo excellent gunfighting KHDs.

    I kind of feel like you play IA for the HI Pain Train. If you don't want to play a Pain Train then you can play Vanilla or ISS (Zhanying? I think?). It's designed to be focused on that. If you want a dirty fighter that is under equipped and under appreciated then you have the Hulang!

    Like I said, if you feel dissatisfied then you feel dissatisfied. But I think a lot of your concerns are that IA cannot do everything and have weaknesses, to which I say: yes. Rightfully so. They can run a ten man list with 6 multi-wound troops and 15 orders though so I think they'll be fine.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, mate, there's not a couple, there's only the 1SWC for Zhanshi, and like I write, it's not like IA doesn't have individually good units or individually units that could possibly solve problems, it's that they're very expensive meaning it's going to be hard to actually fit the tools you need in 300 points format.

    Oh, and Zhanying are also fairly expensive, clocking in at a very similar price to Wu Ming (as an aside, it's funny that CB has stated that Zhanying was added as an option to reduce the cost of the Wu Ming link, but there's nearly no difference in cost between the cheapest Zhanying and the cheapest Wu Ming). The difference with ISS is that there's a much wider range of options available. As much as what you write about weaknesses etc, I think that you're arguing from just looking at what's there on paper less so than actually building and playing competent opposition. On paper ISS has everything IA has and much, much, more while the thing IA has that ISS do not is NCO and TA.

    And again, my initial feeling is that IA might very well turn out like the old MO. Old MO had everything necessary - on paper. I'm seriously getting a feeling that playing IA effectively means you're going to not play the pain train angle.
     
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  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that's true at all. We have a number of local YJ players, some very good ones. They're extremely excited for IA and for good reason. I also don't think you're struggling to fit everything, a Zhanshi LGL is 15pts, easy to get into the list (and incidentally I never fight jammers with spec fire, I think spec fire sucks. Jammers are flanked and lit up from outside 8" range, not so hard). You can also use Hulang with stealth to get close and gut them in CC or with close range fire. Lots of options.

    On paper and in reality, they're looking very tasty. I think this is a case of reality not matching your expectations but there's a huge amount to be explored here. And incidentally, everyone is arguing from paper here. How many games have you played against or with IA so far? As few as the rest of us. You can't make an argument that they're not as good as they appear on paper when they came out last Thursday.
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How do you flank something that's using elevation to avoid getting flanked from the side and closed doors to prevent attacks from outside of 2"? And the price of the Zhanshi LGL is the distance the Zhanshi needs to travel to get the shots in and the SWC it costs to recruit, not the points. Hulang are 43 points and grossly open to flanking shots or flanking AROs. Plus they can't climb any better than can a Zuyong. Not to mention you don't just "use Hulang" as if they are in every list.

    I'm making an argument that they completely failed to shine when playing them and that I'm worried that this trend will continue.

    Seriously, the way you're arguing makes your arguments sound extremely like armchair generalling. And please do note that my attitude towards IA has taken a turn for the worse after playing games with them. Not before.
     
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  14. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Do you attack things that have elevation with the forward deployed camo marker with climbing plus maybe?

    Like, I get that people have decided the Zhencha sucks, but it's literally one of the better tools (in lieu of lgls which very few hi links get easily).
     
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  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    If my opponent has deployed something in that position, with a Jammer, then they probably can't redeploy it very effectively, and since that means it's sitting somewhere within 4" of his DZ, I can probably just ignore it. If they want to leave a 23pt Heckler doing that all game, that's their deal. A Jammer is great area control, but it's only useful to control an area if you opponent wants to go there i.e an objective, which the Heckler needs to move up to in order to cover, thus it is unlikely to be so safely ensconced as you are suggesting, unless they also spent loads of orders getting it there. And if so, not doing something else.

    Also yes the Zhencha will deal with ZCs and Hecklers well I feel.
     
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  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Effing double post
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And to recap, I did write that the Zhencha is more or less mandatory for this reason, being roughly the only solution to these problems. You just have to hope that it's not a mine, that there's not two sources of anti-HI stacked in the same area or that you at least manage to make the saving throws.

    @Solar there's a lot of missions where the mission objective sits roughly 4" of your DZ. Yesterday I played three of them, although for Deadly Dance you don't quite know whether the objectives are going to be relevant when deploying, but that was also the game I had least problems with and mostly thanks to the LI format screwing Haqq out of their greatest asset.
    To put it lightly, a Son-Bae should not put a Maghriba out of action during the reactive turn.
     
  18. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    The increasing prevalence of jammers in the game I think is going to be an increasing issue for everyone as there are very few effective solutions.

    The fact the newer jammers also have Camo only exacerbates this.

    As to multiple anti HI, in those cases, unless your opponent for some reason has an unusually large amount of that type of unit, they've very heavily invested to protect one area, and there should be alternative routes to take.
     
  19. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    On the other hand it's highly unlikely that you won't be able to identify a ZC (it's the camo marker) or a Heckler (it's the camo marker between the Intruder and the Zero) in most lists. There is a bit of a shell game with Hecklers mind, though they are squishy Nomads so it's rather necessary.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There were, in the case of yesterday's tournament, they were protecting the HVT which meant that the best way to go would've been to circle around from left to right side and approach along the opponent's left-most table edge by going through the suppression fire Kriza and the band of jolly dollies. Realising that terrain set up can screw IA over in an unusually hard way is going to be a difficult lesson to go through with IA, and that simply beating your head on the hardest rock your opponent has might be the best option. That route didn't work for the Mowang Datatracker, but it might've for Tai Sheng's jolly band. But dedicating some 60 points of assets to forcing IA to spend upwards of 10+ orders just moving around isn't exactly an unusually large amount of assets, IMO, but qualifies as justifiably reasonable response.
     
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