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Invincible Army post mortem

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Triumph, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure they already said Guijia is the only TAG.


    You weren't trying to run an entire army of hackable models before. Trying to press buttons with a Guilang FO, not too hard. Trying to press buttons with a Zencha while hackers are hanging around, significantly more problematic.

    Yeah I just said it was bad. It's too one dimensional, and the gun is forcing it to go places the model doesn't want to go because it's shit scared of mines. The SMG profile is just all around better, more flexible, and costs less. Blame SMGs being OP if you want but there's no real reason outside of Highly Classified to want that shotgun profile.
     
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  2. Hisey

    Hisey Member

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    Reading this thread honestly made me feel ill.

    I can't believe the snap judgement negativity with so little information, no wonder you constantly hear people talk about avoiding the forums when this is what happens here.

    The people at CB are far more patient than I, having read this thread, I'd say screw it, scrap the whole sectorial and start putting my time and effort into something people might appreciate.

    I hope CB knows this is clearly the infamous vocal minority of the internet here, and not the opinion of their players at large.

    And I honestly have to ask some of you, do you just wake up in the morning and immediately look around for something to be angry about?
    If you're so angry that our new sectorial isn't exactly what you wanted, that you jump to reply to every other post to reaffirm how world ending these "terrible" profiles are, maybe this just isn't the game for you?

    CB, keep up the good work. I for one, look forward to bringing honour to the State Empire
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    To sum up the Liu Xing:

    Vs Fraacta: BS +1, ARM +2, and a single use template weapon has to offset a price hike of 10 points and being Hackable

    vs Tiger: ARM +1, BTS +3, NWI and a single use template has to offset a price hike of 10 points, being hackable and losing mimetism

    As far as I can see, this is a tall order. There is no doubt that NWI will make some difference compared to the Tiger, but I seriously doubt that unless the explode is significant enough to cause a massive concern to your opponent, the Liu Xing will become a Crusader Brethren. They're in MO. I know, it's crazy, MO has an AD trooper. Yeah, they're easy to forget. I know it's a surprise everytime someone brings them up.
     
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  4. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    What exactly is the big problem with the pseudo HI? I mean yeah i see the Zhenchi might be more than underwhelming but the Liu Xing has Bioimmunity. Doesn't that make him a "real" HI for all intends and purposes? Unless you want to doctor him back up (How many times do you actually do that with AD troopers?).

    I bet in CBs weird points system this just makes him cheaper than "real" 2W. Or am i forgetting some ammo that makes him die?
     
  5. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    +1 yestarday i wanted to especulate with the new information etc but after two days rrading tjis i just decided to quit forum for a while. People is flamming without knowing more about the sectorials. We don't know yet if we will have a KHD in another unit ( like the hollow man like dossier we get) or how point balanced the sectorial will be ( come on i prefer a 2 wound HI but we should get cheap units if we want more than 10 order group)

    And PL we don't know exactly explode XL mechanics but the Liu Xi isn't bad at all, i don't know your meta but in mine there isn't a fucking AHD in every corner of the map.

    I was high command of Yu Jing on kurage and i iss where all these motived people we had is hidden right now. Come on relax and chill
     
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  6. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    I know you were only asking rhetorically, but I feel it's worth answering, if only to recount and reflect on how things have changed. So to answer your question, yes and no.

    From what I understand, N2 was a bitter place for Yu Jing. Memes about the Yellow River flowing. CC was overpriced and a joke. The Hsien and Had Tao were just worse versions of the Aquila and Swiss. The Crane was bad and the Pheasant was plain horrible. Oh yeah, Yu Jing the privilege of losing the first named character in Ko Dali. ISS was extremely constrained and JSA was top sectoral.

    Post N3, this forum was butterflies and rainbows, actually fairly wholesome. Things were looking up. Bad profiles were reformed. The Crane became good. CC actually became a worthwhile risk.

    HSN3 continued that trend. ISS really broke out of its shell. Ninja got an honest to god specialist under 30 points. The Pheasant wasn't great, but it was a viable option. Sculpts were largely getting better and better minus the odd scaling hickup. It was really the Golden Age for this section of the forums.

    Then Uprising hit. Man that was bad. I fully acknowledge dumping my share of salt and anger and it still stings.

    And here is where the forums currently stand. While there is occasionally spurts of passion and activity, especially when actual information gets released, this forum is a shell of its former self. Most posts are of new players asking for help, but not a lot of the in depth discussion there used to. You can attribute it to lack of interest, people burned out, or lack of new information. But there is a factor that doesn't seem to be mentioned much.

    Uprising sundered not only our catalogue, but sundered our community. We lost the voices of our JSA commanders. They may have just moved to another part of the forum, but we longer share a common space with them. I miss the insight and different points of view they offered. I miss the combined efforts we put together, even with campaigns as flawed as the annual Beast of War. As facetious as the JSA vs Yu Jing kayfabe conflict was, that was a real loss for the community.
     
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  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's not enough to have a KHD, it needs to deploy up the table. Yu Jing doesn't have a solid repeater network for a backline KHD to work, their only deployable repeater options are Guilangs, and they can't be played and the Zencha doesn't bring any either. You can't run a Barid style KHD in Yu Jing because we don't have the ability to put repeaters where we need them to assist from the rear, you either need to be your own hacking support like the Hac Tao, or you need to infiltrate/FD like the Ninjas and Kanren.

    Unless some of these other profiles are infiltrating hackers, which looking at the models looks like a very big stretch making an educated assumption there, we have a problem here.

    You don't need an AHD to mess with him, all you need is the crummy little line trooper support hacker who shows up all the time to keep tagging him with Gotcha every time you try to do something. Trying to get into a deployment zones, which are riddled with repeaters thanks to remotes, is a nigh impossible order assuming you're not expecting to continuously facetank normal hacking rolls successfully, personally I find that a fairly unlikely scenario.

    Nobody cares.
     
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  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Not to mention old units can get new profiles ^^
     
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  9. Ghost

    Ghost New Member

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    I'm honestly hoping there's going to be some new rules, such as on the Operative Control Unit, that's specifically going to allow for a boost of HI, and then everyone can go "Oh..."


    At this stage, I don't want it cause it will be awesome, I want it just so that people will stop complaining.
     
  10. Ten Thousand Arrows

    Ten Thousand Arrows Imperial Sage

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    The criticism has been hyperbolic at times, but most of the points raised have had valid initial concerns at their heart. It's naive to ignore these concerns because they aren't 100% positive enthusiasm supporting CB. If you honestly felt ill reading this forum then that is a very extreme reaction. If not then you're being just as hyperbolic with your counter-criticism.

    I've explained before, but the YJ playerbase went through a fairly rough time this year with no compensation and little reassurance. Once Corvus Belli's spokesperson relished in the faction's, quote: "tears", and forum Warcors defended every negative of the Uprising, they quickly made an "us vs them" situation. This has clearly increased the animosity of a percentage of the playerbase, because Corvus Belli doesn't present itself as being on "their side". Disregarding this as a vocal minority and suggesting they quit isn't a good community management strategy.
     
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  11. Shango

    Shango Well-Known Member

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    Personally I wait to see the rest but regarding the profiles presented I am disappointed: already none has Tactical Sense skill, none is a HI 2W (I'm not sure that 1W + NWI is a big cost gain but I'm sure it disappoint a lot of people) , the Liu Xing is an AD troupe with 12PH (good luck for ExplodeLX to be effective), the Liu Xing has 3ARM?? With the same armor as the Wu Ming?? Zhencha no repeater, no minelayer and a mediocre BS…
    Well, it's going to take the IA Commanders to be particularly good strategists and ingenious to get by with these kind of soldiers. I still hold the special fireteam with REM, and the duo/special of Han Yuo.
     
  12. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    HI is not only having 2W, it's also having superior stats. These 2 units could have been just tanky MIs ala Yadu and they would have been fine, but CB wanted to call them "HI" just for the meme of the "all HI army" and they are worse off because of that. I wonder when exactly CB realized an all HI army wasn't gonna work with their rules frame and started doing these strange patchs to have an "all HI" list.

    I would be a lot happier if they were MI, but I'm gonna hold off my tears until we have seen if we get some awesome creative units with cool rules, although I must say I'm not very hopeful in that regard.
     
    #132 Benkei, Oct 17, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  13. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    I get heated because I drank the Kool Aid. Shit was amazing. The Year of Yu Jing was a time of great experimentation and wonder.

    And then I was told the guys I got to play with the my original JSA troops couldn't play with them anymore (JSA-> Vanilla). The writing was on the wall, no doubt, but surely Yu Jing wouldn't be left hanging, right?

    Except nothing. The story said IA was mobilizing, but we only got anything actually usable today.

    And it certainly didn't help when I voiced my feelings of loss, the response can be summed up as "Nothing of value was lost."

    Going back to the profiles, they are workable. They aren't win the crowd profiles, which is fine for the overall balance of the game.

    But if you're dealing with a community that has been literally split, shouldn't you be leading with some of those win the crowd pieces?
     
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  14. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Thinking seriously about going over to MO after seeing PanO video. Will wait until book drops tho.
     
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  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I am certainly uninspired by the stuff revealed so far, and that's the exact opposite of what a teaser is supposed to do.

    'AP' (ie, antipersonnel) mines do shock damage.

    Roughly half the camo markers on the field are AP mines.


    The revealed stuff so far has successfully killed my enthusiasm.


    You're used to having 1W models.

    YJ is supposed to be the HI masters, which for anyone not 150 years behind the tech curve meant 2W models.


    Exactly!

    Yeah, I've been rather underwhelmed thus far.

    Yeah, NO.

    I wanted a 300pt list with 8-10 real, 2W HI in it.

    And apparently I was being fucking delusional.



    As @banthafodder mentioned, it really sucked to play YJ in N2. CC was unplayably bad, the Imperial Service had maybe 2 ITS/Paradiso-usable army builds, pretty much every YJ HI was a strictly worse version of the PanO equivalent. We were grumpy. God, I wish we could dig out the N2 forum rage-threads about CC to show the N3-only folks. Campaign: Paradiso had missions that were almost unplayable, and required an immense amount of specific terrain.

    Oh, almost forgot that we lost Ko Dali in Paradiso, a Tiger Soldier with MSV1, BS14, *and* Tactical Jump. Imagine walking 4 Tigers onto someone's table edge, shooting pretty much their entire army in the back (yeah, it was kinda broken). Holy shit there was some hate over that!

    Then N3 came out, really fixing CC and making it viable. HSN3 made Imperial Service go from non-competitive to close to top tier. We were pretty damn happy. HSN3 also brought out Killer Hacking devices, which is a whole different issue but really matters for Invincible Army due to how KHDs pretty much hard-counter Assault Hackers.

    Then came Uprising. OK, Japan is going to secede? Cool, timeline moves forwards, I like this. So, what is the Chinese word for 'sneaky bastard' (to replace the Ninjas who are obviously going to stick with Japan, but YJ still needs something in that role)? *Pre-orders book and JSA Army pack in excitement*

    Wait, you're seriously going with genocide for the lulz? Why the FUCK aren't the various nations acting in their own best interests? How the flying fuck did the Imperial Service do everything possible to make the Uprising succeed?!? Holy fucking shit, you doubled down on the war crimes on both sides? (and this is just from the leaked info, still haven't even gotten the physical book yet)

    Oh, and I didn't get my pre-order until after some people had bought their books in the store (ordered from Warstore).

    So, yeah, I'm already not happy with how CB has been handling things this year. I wasn't planning on pre-ordering the book.

    Then the teaser units for the Invincible Army are 1W. Color me massively unimpressed. Look, I'm a business major (HR, technically, but I know how marketing works, I'm just not very good at it myself). Your teaser trailers need to make people say, "wow! MUST BUY!!!" And these don't. I mean, so far, almost nothing from the new book makes me say, "WOW".


    I think the bigger problem is the Zhencha, because he's going to be out in the midfield with all the antipersonnel mines (which have Shock ammo). Hopefully CB oopsed, forgot to put Bio (or at least Shock) immunity onto the teased profiles.

    My issue with the Liu Xing is that it's filling the same role as a Tiger, when up until last week, everyone 'knew' that there were going to be both Tigers and Liu Xing in the Invincible Army.

    So, our expectation of what the Liu Xing was going to be was roughly the Daofei to the Tiger's Guilang. It was likely going to be big and scary and like 50-60pts.

    The Daofei was literally the reconnaissance section of the Invincible Army. Why the hell aren't the Daofei here? I admit I was expecting the Zhencha to be more or less a Guilang with 2W. Nothing fancy. Instead, it's a 1W, non-shock-immune hackable pop-up target.
     
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  16. Yasashii Fuyu

    Yasashii Fuyu Well-Known Member

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    Well....if you want to see a "MUST BUY" video, just check out the PanO reveal video....THAT is what I would have loved to see for Yu Jing....

    Also for those who claimed that Shock Ammo isn't as available as people think....well guess what...PanO just got a LOT of them, for real low cheap....just great...
     
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  17. gorin

    gorin Well-Known Member

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    smg for 1w infiltrator from helot, wildparrot from echobravo

    just great
     
  18. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    I was just musing on this TBH, the section on MO caught my interest more than our video.
     
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  19. BigBadFox

    BigBadFox Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but thats PanO Stuff. If you ask me, this complete faction is not really strong.
     
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  20. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I find it amusing that the reworked MO looks more like the HI heavy faction that people thought Invinicble Army was going to be.
     
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