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Invincible Army post mortem

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Triumph, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The current known list lets you link Shang Ji with Zhanshi, which seems pretty mint to me. That plus a Hac Tao KHD plus the new drop troop AHD, plus the new skirmisher SMG, a doc and an engineer seems like a solid list to me, covering all the basis, great firepower, nice and compact, aggressive and defensive options and lots of wounds to chew through.
     
  2. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    I'm not in the mood of making comments but I will leave this for you:
    The Anchor and trident symbol is common in the insignia of many engineer and sapper military corps in real life. And Koni has confirmed this insight of a forumite in the spanish forum.
     
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  3. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    Liu Xing seems underwhelming, but fine. While nice it doesn't obsolete the Tiger, it feels kind of like the start of AD troop bloat.

    Not digging the comparison to the Fractaa and Gao Tarsos who pay non HI prices for their big gun.

    Zhencha getting full camo and infiltration is a surprise (was expecting limited camo+mimetism +FD). That said, not liking the lack of Shock immunity. He's an HI deploying in prime mine territory to which he dies like any other chump. The SMG profile has got all the tools though with our luck the BS is the only model released.

    Personally I find the HI designation on these new profiles bullshit. All the weakness if the designation, but none of the associated strengths. Liu Xing kinda gets a pass with Bioimmunity, but the Zhencha feels like a joke.

    The promise of a full HI list feels hollow if you have to pull stunts like this.
     
  4. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    This thread is a joke.

    You guys really disappoint me with the lengths you will go to be upset. This post mortem barely even attempted to think about many of the pros to these profiles. Also worth noting these are the vanilla profiles, not the IA profiles. So might come with some IA only goodness.

    I've played against aleph enough to know that shock isn't nearly as numerous as I want it to be.

    I do agree with mahtamori that hackable not being a discount like frenzy and the like is a design flaw that CB need to pick up on. Even just 2 points, maybe when they re-work hacking to be less swingy.

    Liu Xing - definitely looking at the BSG or Multi profiles the most. Both of those weapons dropped right into a DZ is going to hurt. Sadly they had to balance out Explode by a relatively low PH for an HI.
    The ability to drop on squishy Lts or snipers on roofs could be amazing hail marys. The unit will otherwise serve as a good button pusher with survivability or an alpha piece (which Yu jing really lacked to be honest).
    Getting yours points worth will hinge on good use of Explode or BSG'ing a whole bunch of squishies.

    I like they managed to make another drop troop unique, his role is completely different to the tiger.

    Zhencha - this dude is a real toolbox. The extra BS, NWI and arm make him a very decent skirmisher in those skirm v skirm battles (where shock isn't particularly prevalent). Climbing plus is an amazing skill to both get away from danger or find your way to vulnerable units on roofs - and thats where I think the BSG will be earning his points, more of an attack piece where you can maximise climbing plus.
    But the SMG profile is a great skirmisher, different to a guilang which I'm really stoked about, good pros, and definite cons to have to work around.

    This army will be loving life in the current meta where everyone brings killers and no-one brings AHD. I'm liking how these profiles mesh with vanilla as well!
     
  5. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    I don't know why it surprises me another crying topic. I'm Really disappointed by the Yujing global community right now.
     
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  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I can only give my initial thoughts based on what has been shown. I'm hoping the rest is more positive for me for sure! I guess they just didn’t live up to what I had hoped, but them not being actual Heavy Infantry was a bit of letdown. Some of it is jealousy I guess. I'm sick of putting tons of fire into a Tohaa and their little pet soaking it up and then I still need to put 3 or more wounds into it!
     
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  7. silvertongue

    silvertongue Hacker retórico

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    At the risk of stating the obvious... Can we wait for the actual list before we start the wailing and gnashing of teeth? Just sayin'.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Random thought: Shang-Ji Tinbot in link with 4 Zhanshi Hackers.
     
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  9. banthafodder

    banthafodder Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's not surprising for a community that within the last year experienced an abrupt change (with no benefit) with little clear communication or community management in the lead up and the aftermath.

    Or in the lead up to this there was no clean up of contradictory information or management of expectations.
     
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  10. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Don't you know that most post-mortems start before the subject is even born!

    Maybe the thread should be renamed a Pre-Natal
     
    #70 colbrook, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You can hope, but given they're posting the Pan-O spoilers with sectorial specific disclaimers, this means these profiles are probably all we're getting. As for pros... well there's the problem most of these profiles aren't great. There's one I consider legitimately good and that's the SMG Zencha. The Liu Xing's viability is entirely riding on the exact timing of his explode rule. If it's a bog standard template he's pretty mediocre, if it works like a Kuang Shi he's got some real game.

    The problem is it's super numerous where the shock vulnerable HI, the Zencha, is deploying. AP mines are a dime a dozen on midfield skirmishers. You can't take a 41pt AHD Zencha and then have it skirmish if the 18pt Foxtrot just drops a mine in response. You'll probably kill the Foxtrot, but now your excessively expensive Skirmisher is unable to push forward unless you really feel like dicing it.

    I... how exactly are you defining an Alpha Piece? That's the one thing Yu Jing does not lack for, cost effective rambo alpha strikers. Cost effective rambo of your preferred flavour + all the cheap orders you could ever want to fuel them is kind of what Vanilla and ISS are known for.

    *facepalm* Yeah you guys are forgetting he's HI, he's got problems. You know that thing that tends to pop up in alot of lists? The bog standard support line infantry hacker? Ok, great, you know about him. Now what else also shows up in deployment zones alot?

    The bog standard remotes, specifically the 8pt ones with Flash Pulses, and the other 8pt one that has baggage. You tend to see 2-4 of these in any given list just because cheap orders.

    Ok, now all of these things each make a 17" diameter "AD here and get immobilised on a normal roll" bubble. If your opponent brought 1 line infantry hacker, and just all of 2 remotes, they can literally set up so THEIR ENTIRE DEPLOYMENT ZONE is covered by these bubbles. This is going to make using the Liu Xing excessively difficult. Not only are you immediately gambling with the drop roll itself and wasting a large chunk of points to instead show up in your DZ with a shotgun, you are also gambling on not being immediately immobilised.

    People expecting to live the dream of dropping onto groups of models and then going to town with a shotgun are unfortunately in need of a reality check there.

    The last problem really comes down to the timing on the Explode rule. If this does not trigger like Kuang Shi, you are probably never going to get a good explosion off. You will drop in, place the template, go "Make your 4 AROs please." To which your opponent will go "Sure, I'll engage with all of them" Your not cheap attack piece is now stuck in a situation where he's trying to fight his way out of CC in a losing situation because his CC stats suck, and he's outnumbered.

    While I like the SMG profile for various reasons I'm starting to suspect that you don't actually see alot of skirmishers because shock is actually super prevalent amongst them. Skirmisher and Anti Personnel Mines, name a more iconic duo. SMGs are also becoming increasingly more common on the new wave skirmishers. The Zencha and Dart for example.
     
    #71 Triumph, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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  12. NeonPhoenix

    NeonPhoenix Member

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    i'm not. as banatha mentioned, to say the expectations aren't high for Invincible army after Uprising, is a bit...... well ya not going to feed... you can fill in the rest. but i can see where players are bit lets say, a "wee bit critical" at this point is i think fair. no body, yu jing player or not wants an list that is DOA. pulling off a HI army, by it's very nature was going to be low model count, we just want some assurance that "order starvation" problem isn't going to cripple it, otherwise nice shiny toys are great but if they don't perform table top, then meh.
    The profiles release thus far, in my opinion have a nice mix of excitement (explode LX for example) but also have some weary point values and odd ball knee caps (i.e. the CC values, the PH value on the HI jumper, not true 2W heavies but a quasi 1W, NWI). so let's wait and see, but so far, it's fair to be weary in my opinion.
     
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  13. ObviouslyDexter

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    After the poop shoot that was uprising I still have a sour taste in my mouth that we lost a third of our faction. I have high hopes for these profiles. We NEED awesome troops to fill out gaps, oniwaban, raiden style awesomeness and usefulness. I'd take back the raiden over this new infiltrator every day of the week. Our shang ji needs an overhaul and the few troops left to be revealed need wicked special rules to make this faction worthwhile otherwise imperial service is just straight up better with Kuang shi orders. If the mowang and other profiles aren't 10/10 badass I'm jumping on the Normad and military orders bandwagon. The nomad hi are so much cooler.
     
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  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Fixed that for you. And no, it seems no matter what the army (deities above but the PanO forums are pathetic with wailing right now), we can't wait for all of the information before indulging in hyperbolic histrionics about the state of the game.
     
  15. silvertongue

    silvertongue Hacker retórico

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    See, I absolutely get the post-Uprising sentiment. I was one of the most vitriolic critic of the whole JSA independence thing, and still am. I agree that YJ as a faction deserves some form of compensation. But I'm willing to wait until I get the whole picture before I get all torch-and-pitchfork again.
     
    #75 silvertongue, Oct 16, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's just these two they've shown. If they started with like the Mowang, or something else that's a real heavy infantry, maybe I would have been in more of a positive feel when I saw them.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Napkin math tells me that if they dropped NWI and made Zhencha a proper HI, it'd cost 5 points more - for reference HI seem to pay 15 for Infiltration + Camo while LI/SK seem to pay 10 for the same, which is probably why the Zhencha seems so expensive compared to other infiltrators.
    Looking at much more recent profiles: Skirmisher and SMG.
    I mean. Ryuken-9, Zhencha, the new Oniwaban profile, Dart, Andromeda, Mary Problems (kinda), and Strelok
    (Skirmisher role, not skirmisher troop type. Ryuken-9 is a skirmisher while Wulver are HI roles regardless of what troop type says)

    (Anyone else not seeing Pavel's weapons in Army?)
     
  18. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    The big problem with so many SMGs starting to show up in the midfield (alongisde mines, MULTI weapons, and other Shock sources) is that it royally fucks the Zencha who isn't a proper HI and doesn't have the good fortune to come with Shock Immunity. We're paying a premium for a mid-field who is likely to see their fair share of Shock ammo and that feels really bad for the most part. NWI can be fine for cheaper pseudo-SK units or units that are meant to bully LI mostly armed with non-shock ammo. But midfield is rife with Shock and part of me would honestly rather pay a bit more for the security of two proper wounds than gamble on NWI these days.

    I'm also not a fan of the BS12 on it. It definitely saves on points (since BS 13 is a definite cost breakpoint for the stat), but it also feels like one of those calculated dump-stats for gaming the point system and even when it is to my benefit I really dislike CB doing that.
     
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  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Looks like the SAA update brought back the bugs from early TAK releases, Frontiers and Voronin new profiles are bugged too.
     
  20. BigBadFox

    BigBadFox Well-Known Member

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    I dont think that IA or the units are that bad. The problem is, that ISS is that good and the Wu Ming link is not even the best option.