1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Invincible Army concerns

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Jul 4, 2018.

  1. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    2,947
    quick let me get my armchair why we hypothosise how yu jing HI are trash. sigh.

    Yan huo are the budget sweepers. And they are very very good at the singular job of sweeping, its a bit of an unusual run for yu jing heavy infantry who often bring a few roles along with them.

    In a game of mods, we have 2 amazing MSV2 profiles with an abundance of smoke to get into position. But when you opponent decides to invest into an expensive MSV2 ARO (to try cancel that smoke), the Yan huo (HRMC) are almost always superior in a straight fire fight for almost always less cost. That is a good trade.

    Singular good heavy infantry does not make a heavy infantry faction. Sorry nomads.

    When nomads can bring a HRMC, a camo infiltrating heavy infantry with a spitfire and a 6-4 MSV2 bot, ehhh I might start worrying.
     
  2. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,503
    Likes Received:
    2,651
    nope

    Just give them Courage and A "die hard" skill that grants them a second inconscious level. They supose to be rocks, not chickens, nor peakers

    Fuck mimetism and visors Let the enemy waste orders against their superior Armor. That's how a Rock should work. The second unconscious is to prevent them from being insta-killed by T2, High burst weapons, Fire, DA or EXP. we lack doctors, The gongcheng has AVA1 and is a crappy profile, so it shouldn't be so OP to make Yan-huos a bit more resilient

    And of course that way Our HI rock would be really unique

    But it's a mere wish
     
  3. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,757
    Likes Received:
    2,443
    @Alphz i don't know which tables you play, but in mine you have to move to be able to shoot at people, and Yan Huo can't move. Also, Kriza is so much better than Yan Huo it's painful to watch.

    Bottom line, yes, YJ sux except what, Kuang Spam and a couple units? I'm sorry but i like variety in my lists

    Also, want me to tell you how many things Nomads can bring that we can't? I assure you they are more than 3
     
    #123 Benkei, Jul 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  4. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    2,947
    Do you understand what sweeper means?

    The kriza and the Yan huo are not the same type of unit.

    The daofei might be a better comparison in that point range, and in many cases a superior unit.
    And then the kriza doesnt even sniff at the hac Tao or hsien.

    I appreciate a good arm chair session but at this point it seems like you might have a very restrained experience of yu Jing
     
  5. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,757
    Likes Received:
    2,443
    Funny, i think the same about you
     
  6. Shango

    Shango Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    98
    Han Yuo is not defensible its cost is extremely high compared to similar troops of other nations (Kriza, Al Fasid, Sogarat...)
    I'm sorry but the type of unit has nothing to do with its cost/efficiency ratio.

    Regarding Yu Jing It is time they demonstrate that they are actually an army force at the forefront of technology. His HI troops don't reflect this fluff.
     
  7. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    494
    Likes Received:
    559
    That is like the main thing I look at when judging cost/efficiency...


    errmm I don't know what a sweeper is.
     
    Keyrott likes this.
  8. Kallas

    Kallas Vincible

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2018
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    471
    Well, I highly doubt that the IA will have access to both Hsien and Rui Shi (although very likely Rui Shi will be in there). IA will probably not have good access to plentiful smoke (ie, CG KSCD and Shaolin - neither of those are likely to appear).

    So IA has one MSV2 unit, maybe with AVA2 or 3, and any possible new units (which, y'know, yay more overlap! :P )

    Where is IA's mod-stacking coming from? High base BS? Eh, our HI aren't particularly great in that regard except for a couple of super expensive units (Su Jian, Hsien, Hac Tao, Yan Huo) many of whom won't even be in the Sectorial.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    I agree with the spirit of what alphz writes, but I do note that when I made an inventory of vanilla faction smoke, we're essentially tied with Tohaa for second least amount of smoke available and since Tohaa has access to Eclipse and smoke on non-impetuous models I'd say Yu Jing is the second least smoke intensive faction in game. We have smoke. That's it. It's not a lot, it's not very reliable, but it's there and we have good MSV2 to make use of it, which is more than most factions can say*. I'm hoping we'll see a smoke grenade HI so that it'd be possible to get reliable smoke trick for vanilla, that balances a slightly higher cost against removing the unreliable nature of the CG and isn't as easy to take out as a Shaolin or, well, a CG.

    Returning to the topic, I do note that the Thing for other factions have been repeating itself on new themes with the new releases. Tunguska has new ways of making hacking work and new ways of deploying little helpers. Kazaks have a slightly different take on camo. Operations takes the Aleph elite NWI in a slightly different direction.
    This tells me that there's nothing conceptually that would prevent new flavours of Sensor or a different take on the MSV2 HI. Maybe Invincible Army will bring a Zuyong level HI with MSV2 and a different loadout to contrast the more elite Hsien? In fact, I can see the two signature ISS HI be an elite version of potential Invincible Army units where the latter would be missing Martial Arts (and therefore Stealth) and have more mediocre stats.
    Not holding my breath, but sticking Shaolin into HI would be all kinds of awesome (and potentially fall flat on its face)

    * Since most MSV2 is on level of Bao - fairly meh. Expensive, but not very bloated, 1 wound with none of the Intruder's camo shenanigans or Rui Shi supportware to bolster them up
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  10. Keyrott

    Keyrott Nomad Handyman

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2017
    Messages:
    472
    Likes Received:
    1,244
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Extremely high?
     
  11. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    547
    Likes Received:
    455
    Each of those troops you compare it to gets more for their similar cost:

    Kriza has full auto, courage, and multiterrain.

    Sogarat has an auto medkit and Morat.

    Al fasid has veteran, sixth sense, minelayer and an LGL.
     
    theradrussian likes this.
  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    All of them have weaker weapons and lower BS, although that's less critical with the Kriza.
     
  13. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    441
    Yan Huo has BS14, AP/Shock/DA/Stun ammo, and the HRMC boasts +0 rangeband from 32-48". Really in comparison the only thing that stands out is the Kriza's Full Auto L2, the others trade 1 BS and Burst for some extra utility. If Full Auto lacked the -3 it would be a pretty even heat, in my opinion. As is the Yan Huo still comes across as second best among all those options, at least in the "blowing stuff up" department.
     
    chaos11 and ambisinister like this.
  14. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    2,804
    I'll allow this is soon as the OYoroi is CC23 and MA4.

    YJ still has a 5 point Smoke warband and 13 point Smoke LGL. Thats pretty good access compared to some other armies where it doesn't exist at all or is really expensive. It's pretty reasonable.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    That would be Pan-O. There is no main faction without smoke, and most main factions have similar access to the smoke sources you outlined and at least three other sources that Yu Jing can't replicate. Sectorials do not count since they are literally designed to have much stronger drawbacks than a vanilla faction. The key here is the combination for Yu Jing with MSV2 that makes Yu Jing much more likely to use their smoke than other factions, which is where the notion that Yu Jing is a smoke-dense faction comes from.
     
    P-Chan and Zewrath like this.
  16. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    2,947
    Its a term used for a deployment zone unit which covers a key area of the midfield and to some extent the enemy DZ within 1-2 moves. And then removes enemy units left out to ARO.
    The yan huo is particularly good for this because of the combination of AP/DA high burst, high BS and no negative range bands, makes it the perfect counter for MSV2, high arm, long range aro units. Which are things your rui shi MSV2 might not be very good at getting through.

    So while the yan huo is comparable or slightly worse than other factions sweeper heavies, it becomes better when it combos with units other factions simply don't have access too.

    I mean this is based on assuming all the things IA wont get and then being pretty cynical about what they might get. So its makes perfect sense its going to seem doom and gloom.
    Its hard to say what IA might get. But I don't see much reason they wouldn't get smoke, it might be eclipse smoke though! We will either get a better MSV platform or CB might go with some really interesting heavy infantry profiles (like the shooting star?!?) and leave MSV as a weakness.
    For mod stacking, it would only take mimetism on a BS14 heavy to exceed expectations. But yu jing is already pretty crowded in the elite HI category - although there were rumours of another super heavy, so maybe?

    I think yu jing access to smoke is respectable. Haqq is only slightly better with the addition of the fasid. CA is pretty comparable.
    I don't think IA will bring more MSV2 HI and reliable smoke to vanilla yu jing. If anything the smoke will be quite limited or in the form of eclipse, which would be interesting. But in only takes 1-2 reliable smoke platforms to do MSV2 shenanigans (I do it all the time with JSA).

    What would be cool is shang ji bringing MSV1 and mimetism with a zuyong link. I like the idea of a slightly different sensor, maybe on forward deploying ODD troops (to avoid the camo situation) to mix up the camo specialist meta.

    One synergy I'm already seeing is a yan huo or zuyong fireteam keeping heads down and then a shooting star dropping in and wrecking people with a boarding shotgun. Throw in some midfield units (an ODD sensor unit) and we've got an army.
     
  17. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    740
    Combined Army is way worse off than Yu Jing. Their cheapest smoke grenade model is 14 pts. You get nearly 3 shaolin for that. And all their smoke lgl models are extremely impetious. That's way worse. Just because more profiles exist does not mean the overall smoke coverage is better. Especially if the profiles are garbage.

    I'd say with 7 main factions being the 3rd from the bottom is not really super bad.

    Edit: but maybe my view is warped because i play PanO.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    If CB is trying to push for FO Camo hunters like someone mentioned in another thread, then a forward deploying HI with MSV1/2 and short range weapons would be very interesting and thematic.

    @CabalTrainee just like you say, just because they are there doesn't make them good. Celestial Guard is terrible outside of links at deploying smoke, I have literally lost games due to order loss because of lack of aim and the fact that 8 to 16 seem to be a range which is oddly suboptimal for smoke. Point taken on the lack of symmetry to Shaolin, but at the same time Yu Jing does not have Speculo Killers or Treitak to provide the easier to use smoke grenades on regular and non-impetuous models, who can in a pinch claim cover for a clutch FTF throw. Speculo doesn't need to give this smoke to anyone else and will themselves be the primary user, and as such is nearly guaranteed to be in the perfect spot for using smoke (unless you've failed to utilise the speculo completely). Nor does Yu Jing have the MSV3 Charontid to make use of such smoke sources.
    So again, Yu Jing has smoke, Yu Jing uses smoke, but the profiles are neither numerous nor very reliable. Yu Jing does have well above average use for smoke and as such will use smoke as an active tool well above average. This doesn't make it common, only commonly used. I think the distinction is very, very, important because breeding the notion that Yu Jing has a lot of smoke breeds complacency and will likely lead to Yu Jing grossly missing out on a signature feature because CB would share this notion.
    Or compare it to the Swiss Guard. Just because Swiss Guard is commonly used in Pan-O and very good doesn't mean that Pan-O has a lot of TO camo heavy infantry.
    Edit: No. It's not bad. I'm not complaining about it. I'm just saying that smoke is a strength shared everywhere and that adding more sources will in no way make Yu Jing overflow with smoke compared to other factions.

    @Alphz small note; HRMC and MHMG is AP/Shock for B5. DA is B1 :)
     
  19. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    740
    I disagree that smoke grenade launchers are bad. Even outside of links. (the SWC hurts most if you ask me)

    People say Yu Jing has alot of smoke because they have cheap smoke. You get 4 smoke models + one smoke grenade launcher for 33 points. For the same thing you can't even get one single speculo killer. For overall smoke coverage Yu jing is pretty decent and can hold its own.

    Fully agree. I doubt more smoke options in YJ would hurt anyone.
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    I disagree on that entirely. The Speculo is a disgusting model to use with Ko Dali. He starts in position, tosses a smoke grenade at a table edge. Ko Dali walks onto the table inside it and proceeds to destroy your backline with BS14 twin assault pistols and MSV2. If you don't have template weapons guarding your table edge to keep her honest she can do some disgusting work.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation