This is really an invincible army wish list dressed up as an analysis. I say that because If it was the latter the obvious answer is we know so little about what invincible army will contain that its hard to say how valid these concerns are. In regards to wishlisting though, I think you over emphasise the need for MSV2. Msv1 plus defensive mods could be an interesting solution as well as template weapons. I hope that Shang ji are redesigned to fill an important role in IA. In regards to midfield: I think ryuken are a case study that midfield skirmishers can be good without Camo. So there's a place here for midfield presence that isn't just Camo skirmishers, mech. Dep. Heavier units could feature, maybe with minelayer skills to counter Camo. Hacking is a tough one. But a decent hacker with high BTS within a link with a tinbot and Evo support could actually hold their own, if one was inclined to invest that way. Alternatively, some stealth plus tinbots might be the cheaper alternative, as well as misddling killer hacker. I think hacking will be one of IA weaknesses and we will probably have to over invest to counteract that. Grenades are dangerous as they can quickly contribute to a negative play experience if they become too optimised. Putting a reliable grenade launching platform within a 2w link team is probably going too far. Although I would like to maybe see hand grenades on a mech dep. Profile as a different kind lt Hunter.
If it was a wish list I'd make a wish list if it was an analysis I'd make an analysis, but frankly I'm not interested in putting in the effort I think an actual analysis would require or full of myself enough to make a crappy one and dress it up in fancy clothing. No, this is me looking at Tunguska getting a lot of nice toys and being concerned about the current known quantities and the rather lengthy list of drawbacks for 5 units to fill (drawbacks is required, but too many isn't good at all) Well, there's some reliable grenade launchers in game already, more than one of HI. We'll see, though. I'm more concerned that CB is designing units that seem to need grenades to deal with efficiently than I am with a potential lack of them.
Nobody said that IA sectorial was only to receive 5 new units, that's some rumor you players have created. Bostria told to a forumite during last year's Interplanetario that at that time the studio's art designer director was working on 5 units. That doesn't mean that the sectorial is only going to add five new units… actually as far as I'm concerned there's a nice plethora of new HI units incoming.
While I certainly hope the first part is true, I doubt the second is, because as much as HI being the general theme you can't have a sectorial with only 35+ points units. And as far as the rumour goes, that's the information we have to go on. Assuming more than 5 units is, frankly, wishlisting.
A linked heavy infantry grenade launcher would be on par with the best GLs in the game with more durability and better than the squalo. No there are currently few "reliable" GLs in the game that frequently and without much risk achieve greater than 45% odds to even hit, let alone win ftf. So this is a whinge about Tunguska dressed up as IA chat?
Ryuken have ODD, so even though they don't have a marker state to hide under they still have a -6 to-hit (and usually -9 due to Suppression Fire). That's not a good sign. Though at least IMO the problem is the lack of regular hacking devices and a heavy reliance on AHD. And AHDs are pretty strongly countered by KHDs. You mean like a Wu Ming Multi+LGL in the a 5-man link team? That is available right now in Imperial Service? Again, like the Wu Ming Multi+LGL in Imperial Service? BS19 in the link, BS13 Speculative. And honestly, if you're trying to win FTF with an LGL (or even an HGL), you're doing it wrong.
As far as I can jot my memory, the goodies for Invincible Army were supposed to get: Another Mechanical Transmuation super-HI Airborne Heavy Infantry (...probably little better than an AD Zuyong with some tax like Bioimmunity) The "finished" Daiyokai project, whatever its Yu Jing name will beHac Tao Sun Tze All the basic Heavies Yan Huo And… that's it? It's a challenging sectorial to make, due to the way that have historically priced and kitted HI. You could make Shang Ji "affordable" by throwing in an SMG+Blitzen loadout, but that would just confess that basic Heavies are not reasonably affordable. Maybe players would be more interested in a Mimetism Shock Marksman loadout than a cheap filler bone? We will see a few new Tunguska/PDF rules and ALEPH models, and Heavies + Cheap Troop/Cheap REM filler, as that's the trend with these things.
Yes as does the locust. One isn't taken, the other is max Ava'd. Being somewhat week to hackers is a problem? I'd actually be more concerned if they designed a heavy infantry faction to not be weak to having unless you invested points. Oh yes the 39 point one. I don't think I've seen it taken, but fair point. How do you use GLs if it's not to win face to faces? Dodging is still a face to face. The point being the odds are lower than 45%
If it helps you sleep at night, let's go with that fairy tale. That depends on to what degree you're vulnerable to hacking. Right now, that's a concern. So... let me get you right. It's a problem if we get too many LGLs on HI, but you never see them used and at 45% chance they're really bad? (It's actually 38% against Alguaciles)
One thing to be more vulnerable to hacking than the norm given normal list-building. It's a whole different ball game to "have to over-invest" in anti-hacking defenses. I mean, if you need to bring 2 or 3 KHDs to protect your two assault hackers, and an EVO for supportware because you don't have a normal hacking device, that's one hell of an investment! Oh, that's right, you do get a Dodge against Speculative Fire which makes it a FtF roll. Damn, I really need to play more! And if you play Imperial Service, I strongly recommend that you take a Wu Ming LGL for a spin. They're a lot of fun. (similarly, Druze or Emily EM LGL, or Hassassin Muyib LGL)
You know this already exists in multiple places, right? Wu Ming do this in ISS and Ikari already, and StarCo have an even more obnoxious version with Emily who can do this with both regular and E/M nades, and has an X-Visor to boot.
Luckily Handelman can't Core and the X-visor doesn't work for the Speculative Fire malus. I think that Montesa takes the cake with their "acceptable" BS14 and starting at mid-field, even if they can't link past Duo. But I think Alphz has been served sufficient info on topic of grenade launchers already. (Side note, but I have a feeling that they're being restrictive with grenades for HI in a way they are not with LGLs, and also a Zuyong with LGL would likely be 32/1 in cost) (Edit: the Speculative Fire MOD is a malus, not a bonus)
Uh, Emily goes in a core link with Riot Girls. And range modifiers still apply to speculative fire, which X-Visor still interacts with. "X Visor benefits also apply to Common Skills with Range bands, such as Discover and Suppressive Fire." "Declaring Speculative Fire entails a -6 MOD to BS or the relevant Attribute. This MOD is added to all others MODs applicable to the BS Attack (Range, Cover, etc.). I've been on the receiving end of this. It's some nasty stuff. Emily can punt E/M nades at 24" on effective BS10 which against models eating a -3 to dodge without sixth sense is still a scary prospect depending on their value.
Interesting discussion here. I think the big point to remember is that no matter how much we think we know what a Sectorial will look like, it's easy for us to be surprised. We're seeing that with the fresh wave of new Sectorials this year. I've been in the camp of "oh, this sectorial release is a gimme for CB, because they're already so well-rounded... I bet they won't be getting any new units." But we've seen new Sectorials receive a pile of new units, including some ones that have dramatically changed the anticipated playstyle of the Sectorial from what was anticipated. That's significant. As far as wishlisting is concerned: Vs hacking: I do think the strongest tinbot that's possible + firewall is a very good defense vs typical hacking devices. Assault Devices are less popular, and standard HDs aren't good at interfering with Hackable targets. -3 WIP and a monster BTS save is a very good start, even against determined infowar opponents. If we want to see some new mechanics in play though: I'd like a mech deploy or forward deployment Light Infantry choice choice with minesweeper, d-charges, nullifier. Yes, Nullifier. I don't think it's unreasonable for Yu Jjing to have earned this piece of technology. As a deployable, it's still inherently limited... It can be destroyed, the deploying unit needs to move into position to drop it, etc. but it would allow IA to create "safe zones" of hacking immunity where their units can advance or shelter. If a Hacking-heavy opponent wants to undo that problem, they just need to send in a Chain Rifle to kill the Nullifier... Fine. But it would create an interesting dynamic of Hacking and counter-Hacking, without just adding another KHD profile to the game. CB can even tack an SWC cost on it, or find some other ways to inflate the cost up a bit. Something like a Field Pioneer or Combat Engineer Duo team would be interesting and playable. Hell, you could even give them Sensor. It makes sense that you have a flexible light infantry team that helps pave the way for Shock Troops. Grenades: The lack of hand-thrown grenades on "standard" HI continues to be interesting. I've always considered this a missed opportunity to incentivise troops like Brigada, ORCs, Jannisaries, and basically half of the HI in Yu Jing. I don't know if there's a perceived concern about balance, but I honestly think this entire category of HI could use some help. Overall tactical flexibility: TJC shows us that CB isn't afraid of giving Sectorials severe limitations. I was starting to think CB was headed in the other direction... Making each individual Sectorial very well rounded, almost like a self-contained Vanilla list with a broad range of abilities and equipment. TJC shows us that this is incorrect. The verdict is out on whether or not TJC has the chops to be a highly competitive Sectorial, compared to just playing Vanilla. I don't know about IA, and honestly we have no way of knowing until we start seeing profiles and releases for them. The best I can say on this front though is that I'd expect a pile of new units and profiles to help IA be playable in the eyes of CB.
*smashes head on desk* That's not visible on Handelman's profile. Yeah, but that means you need to shoot the 'nade at 17"+. You don't get to use it when shooting at 0-16" is what I meant with it not working on the Speculative Fire malus.
I think hand grenades are much more interesting tactically than LGL. Thats a great point Barakiel. I'd definitely like to see more interesting ways to addressing hacking weaknesses than just adding in killer hackers. Nullifier is actually a much more interesting option than the tinbot/supportware route. Its feeds into the trade-off balance that makes infinity great. Don't get me wrong, spec grenades can be fun, and really punish some spammy armies. But in my own experience, even a full druze team (a respectively GLer) is more of a trap to burn orders than an effective choice to consistently win games. But thats a fine place to be for one of the few weapons in the game that gives your opponent little recourse. Ultimately though, I think speculative fire grenade launchers are a boring tactical tool and the game would be worse off with too many high BS/x-visor linkable GLs entering the mix. Let a lone an optimised HI profile like the Zuyong getting it.
Good post, @Alphz . I'm glad I'm not alone as far as thrown grenades vs launchers. Thrown grenades help the good PH on HI to feel less like a waste, and are a legitimately valuable tool for helping HI link teams survive in the midfield. In particular, they've become a really valuable tool for dislodging Hackers/Repeaters/Jammers hiding up on nearby buildings, but their short range means you're not bombarding enemy DZs unless you've already spent the orders required to walk there. I love that. Having used the Squalo and Druze a good number of times, sitting back and Spec Firing 1 dice shots vs 1 dice Dodges is, in my opinion, the least fun way to play Infinity. Fewer launcher + x-visor combos. More dynamic short-range exchanges.
I would love to see more stun grenades or even blackout grenades, perhaps if CB are worried about handing out normal damage grenades. Although I would find that strange given the recent uptick in linkable GLs. As for Invincible army, my only real concern is how they address the order situation. Giving reliable access to something too cheap I feel wouldn't fit the theme very well. Cheap support remotes seems like the easiest choice, but I somehow feel its not something CB would do, given their current limitation on remotes for vanilla yu jing (Cmon! why can I take twice as many krakots as simply messenger bots? or kanren >_<)
Yeah, that'd be interesting and different. I really see that as the role for REMs, not squishy humans. Every squad of HI has a couple pointbots with sensor etc.
I'd like to bounce back on this. With tunguska's release we saw that CB has been more and more daring with units and sectorial design. While it's a very good thing (who doesn't love crazy options?), it sadly tend to makes older unit feels more bland and boring. For instance, i haven't seen a lot of enthusiasm about grenzer haris or core fireteam in the tunguska thread: why bother when you can just drop a missile launcher/spitfire in your securitate team? But wait, wasn't tunguska supposed to be the sectorial where grenzer could finally shine? That's pretty much the only thing i fear about invincible army. I have no doubt all those brand new units will make the sectorial competitive, but it's supposed to be the sectorial where terracotas and shang-jì will be in the spotlight. The last thing i want is for some new LIs or MIs to kick them out because they didn't find a way to make the old guard stand out. At the moment, a terracota 5-man team isn't really exciting, nor competitive as far as HI link goes: riot girls are just as expensive yet way stronger, hollow men are good they can't dodge or CC but terracotas aren't that much better, and even in our own faction i'd rather play a wu-ming link for the sheer amount of exotic stuff (GL, mines, chain rifle + smg, mines, panzerfaust, mines). Shang-jì aren't that good either, and even though they could fill a niche as assault unit in IA they coule very easily be outshined by good infiltrators. They really need to fix them first, make them more attractive, otherwise IA will probably not live up to players expectations.
