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Impetuous - No "Double back"

Discussion in 'Rules' started by WiT?, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    how about both players choose a movement path and direction, and then you roll it high/low.
     
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Keeping this alive seems to be important

    ► When declaring Move, Jump, or Climb, the Trooper must always move the full corresponding MOV value, attempting to perform the first of these options that the Trooper can complete:
    ► 1. Enter Silhouette contact with an Enemy Trooper during this move.
    ► 2. Go towards the Enemy Deployment Zone without doubling back from the movement’s starting position.
    ► Troopers may only move a shorter distance if they reach Silhouette contact with an Enemy or a Special Terrain area hinders their Movement or forces them to declare Jump or Climb.

    What RAW does give us, is that Impetuous troops can't tuck themselves into a Corner as in @WiT?'s EG1 on the right. Impetuous Movement has to be the full movement value and can't stop in that corner since it's neither Silhouette Contact with an Ememy or a Special Terrain area. This could however by circumvented by declaring a parabolic Jump that ends up reaching the same point using the full Movement value.

    To sum up again what appears unclear with only @HellLois being able to make a call:
    - specific examples for "no doubling back" to visualize the meaning of the term
    - How do Impetuous troops behave inside the enemy DZ
    - confirmation if there is no longer an obligation to use the fastest option or fastest path (i.e. straight diagonal appears to be fine as long as you end up 0.1" closer to the enemy DZ)
     
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  3. m2cat

    m2cat Active Member

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    As a regular MAF player I'm following this thread.
     
  4. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Can be gamed pretty hard. "Oh yeah, sure, if he goes this way he's in front of my TR bot. Pretty sure thats the fastest way"

    Yeah, people can just not be dicks, but this isn't a thread for not being a dick lol. Its a thread to get a concrete answer on how a rules mechanic works so dickery cannot occur.
     
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  5. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    absolutely. and you can choose to risk it or cancel.
     
  6. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    "I think the fastest route to my deployment zone is to not make any movement at all."

    "I think the fastest route to my DZ is towards that random alleyway where you will be of no use to the game."

    "I think that the fastest route to your DZ is to move precisely here, then behind this object, then stopping just before the line of fire of your TR bot... moving out there totally looks like it wouldn't be faster"

    "I think that impetuous becomes roughly 50% totally useless if it was a coin toss in that manner."

    We need hard rules to govern the movement and I just don't believe that "players choose a route each, flip for it" fulfills the requirements for effective Impetuous movements because its still based on subjective and gameable (consciously or otherwise) ideas of 'fastest path'.
     
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  7. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    1. would be unallowed on the basis it is not the full movement value.

    2. running them away from the fight one half order hardly seems gamebreaking.

    3. again, stopping isn't an option. insofar as this is on the voice of the trooper's owner, i suspect we will see plenty of optimization to avoid fire lanes with the rules as is.

    4. an odd thing to say to you opponent, but okay.

    my suggestion is it is always going to be gameable. we had endless discuss about impetuous in N3, and we are well on the way in N4. avoidance of gameable isn't an option.

    instead, i suggest you accept the game and let the player determine the risk. either you predict your opponent's choice is likely too risky and cancel before declaration of the move, or you gamble that the worst they can do isn't bad enough.
     
  8. Iver

    Iver Human Plus

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    Leaving movement of your troops up to chance like that would suck quite a bit from a gameplay feel perspective.
     
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  9. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    probably. but it functions, and you choose when you want to take the chance. and maybe its based on their wip instead of a 50/50. lots of ways to tweak it.

    best part, we dont have to relitigate what towards and double back mean anymore.
     
  10. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I just want a clarification on attempt. Is the attempt to reach b2b with an enemy trooper enough. Or must you reach b2b and if you can you must try to head towards enemy deployment.


    Like say i have an enemy infiltrator within zoc of my impetuous trooper who is closer to my deployment zone than i am, i cannot reach base contact with it in my first mov value. Can i still attempt to get closer to it, or must i now run further towards the enemy deployment zone. Putting me further away from the enemy
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    This. It’s per-move, and if you can reach Silhouette contact with that move then you must do so. If you can’t, you go towards the enemy DZ, however that ends up getting defined.
     
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  12. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    It feels like you should be allowed to head towards enemies within zone of control even if you cannot reach them in your first value.

    Enemy 4.5 inches away, well best head towards enemy deployment zone putting me 8.5 further away from enemy im supposedly foaming at the mouth to get into contact with
     
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  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Honestly, Impetuous has never made much narrative sense. Especially not for Mutts who are desperate to get into b2b with their cc14.
     
  14. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure CC attribute has anything to do with it. Impetuous means acting without thought or care. These are people/aliens that would rather be up close and personal, not because they are great hand-to-hand fighters, but because they are simply not caring about the consequences of closing the distance.

    I certainly didn't have a problem with potentially suicidal troops with Extremely Impetuous in N3, but now that everyone's "regular impetuous" I can see how it's awkward to have to move towards the DZ when there's an enemy "right there". Then again, it probably fits the definition a bit better that way...
     
  15. Adra

    Adra Member

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    *Following in Taigha
     
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  16. Axel Castellan

    Axel Castellan New Member

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    as per rules I think Impetuous cannot get ARO from enemy when activated with the impetuous phase.


    ARO: AUTOMATIC REACTION ORDER
    In Infinity N4 games, thanks to the Automatic Reaction Order (ARO) mechanic, the
    action and decision-making never stops. Even during their opponent’s Active Turn,
    a player’s Models and Markers can react each time the opponent activates one of his
    Troopers with an Order.


    IMPETUOUS AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Impetuous Phase, Obligatory.
    EFFECTS ► During the Turn’s Impetuous Phase, the player may activate each Impetuous Trooper once, without spending an Order.
     
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  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    By that reading, the Impetuous Trooper doesn’t get to declare any Skills, either.

    Also, please read the Order Expenditure Sequence which comes immediately after that. In particular, steps 2 and 4.

    Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks Lines of Fire to the Active Trooper, and declares AROs. Troopers are not forced to declare the AROs, but if a Trooper can declare an ARO and fails to do so, the chance to declare an ARO is lost.​
     
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  18. CaptainKerchar

    CaptainKerchar New Member

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  19. CaptainYarrr

    CaptainYarrr New Member

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    Another question concerning impetuous which came up during our last game. If an impetuous trooper declares move + dodge does the dodge move need to be towards the enemy dz as well?

    Furthermore does the impetuous trooper need to move towards the enemy dz during the normal phase as well?
     
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  20. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Good question... It doesn't specify that they are referring to impetuous activations but I imagine the following bullet points should specify they mean as part of impetuous activations. Especially considering they are formatted the same as the partial cover bullet point, as that rule is presumable intended to work outside of the impetuous activations.

    ► When declaring Move, Jump, or Climb, the Trooper must always move the full corresponding MOV value, attempting to perform the first of
    these options that the Trooper can complete:
    ► 1. Enter Silhouette contact with an Enemy Trooper during this move.
    ► 2. Go towards the Enemy Deployment Zone without doubling back from the movement’s starting position​
    ► Troopers may only move a shorter distance if they reach Silhouette contact with an Enemy or a Special Terrain area hinders their Movement or forces them to declare Jump or Climb.
     
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