Impetuous is optional

I like it - you have less warband-esque pieces due to the opportunity cost for them being much higher (only 15 models), but each of those warband pieces is much more reliable/easier to use due to no ext impetuous.

 

While I like the change, the adjustment of impetuous phase will make frenzy skill into a new level of joke. Hurray for Hospitallers!


P.S) FFS, now those taigha creatures are real pain in the ass lvl units

 

I dislike this change from a conceptual level. It's nothing but advantages for us, but it makes impetuous far too good. Impetuous should be wholly obligate. It's far too easy to mitigate its 'downsides.'

 

This is also a buff to Frenzy, because it needed the help. I don't get how we get skills that discount points while giving you advantages at the same time.

 

While it is an incredible buff for ISS, I liked how having most of your order generators run forward forced you to be on the offensive. Between this and tactical window, ISS has shifted towards a less aggressive playstyle.

 

Witht the Berserk change (and it not working in ARO) and no longer being able to wait with Sixth Sesnse I feel like they got less troublesome

 

Extreme impetuous being gone was one of the first things I think people noticed when bisecting the Mutta'wiah. I do think this was also in the leaked data.

I think the biggest change to Impetuous is that you don't have to beeline towards the closest enemy, but instead only need to move in the general direction of the enemy's DZ.

This doesn't represent a change to Frenzy at all. Frenzy didn't make a unit Extreme Impetuous before, it made them Impetuous. Biggest change there is that it triggers in Effects Phase instead of start of next own turn, so in effect Frenzy is now harder to deal with. Still, letting the Fireteams suppress it deserves an essay on its own.

 

My only hope is that the fireteam rules we have are not the N4 rules but still N3 so maybe when the N4 rules come in an undetermined future they change the Frenzy cheat

 

Fireteam ignoring impetuous is absolutely asinine, and the fact that CB didn't take the chance to address that is a disappointment if there ever was one.

Since impetuous isn't even mandatory anymore, it makes no sense for frenzy and impetuous troopers to have an exception in links. Not getting access to cover is still plenty fair for the discounts they get.

 

Yeah I got your points, they're significantly less threatening in CC. But my point was that their size (S1) and ability to lurk inside tiny covers / can engage with massive advantage to their PH rolls would be more troublesome without their major drawback of obligatory movement with 6 inches.

So yeah they'll be more (or less) obnoxious in N4 I suppose.

 

Essay incoming, I'll try to make it the short version.

So, there are two effects of Impetuous; one is to remove Cover which in most situations means you're missing out on 3 ARM and an extra "mimetism". These are both fairly huge bonuses and while Mimetism is not valued very highly by CB, ARM is, however it's important to note that these effective values can be out-manoeuvred by your opponent and any unit can find themselves in a position where they are forced or surprised into fighting without Cover, so it's not as potent as +3 ARM and -3 Mimetism.
In my experience Cover is negated slightly less often than Mimetism -3, but can be negated on a tactical level rather than unit choice level, so any unit can negate it. I would myself value Cover at approximately the same level as about 2 ARM when taking this into account, which in my eyes means that the discount for Impetuousness is over-played significantly for most units - of course taking into account that 2 extra ARM means a hell of a lot more for an ARM 9 units than it does for an ARM 1 unit, particularly in this New Crit Meta.
On the other hand, a lot of the game is run on the assumption of this base ARM and base reduction of to-hit is in fact in place, which pushes its value up a bit.

The other effect is that it gives you an extra "TacAware" order. While this order have some pretty hefty restrictions (though less than in N3), it is still an order which we have a known value on which is 3. It's not quite TacAware as it needs to be spent in the beginning of the turn and can't be spent at any time, so let's assign a slightly lower value to it.

So, in its essence, I would estimate the value lost to between 6 and 10 points and the value gained to about 2. This is the basis for why I think most impetuous and most Frenzy troopers are getting a slightly too high discount, but they are still entitled to a fairly high discount - it is absolutely a more impactful loss than being Hackable usually is.

When in a Fireteam, the Impetuous trooper removes this gain and loss but still retains the discount. Since the value of what is gained (the extra order) and the value of what's lost (cover) is not equal, this results in a something-for-nothing discount when the trooper is in a Sectorial. I abhor something-for-nothing abilities, they always skew the game in a bad way - advantage should be in access to the stuff you pay for, their combinations, and how they complement each other. When a unit in a game receives something that is strictly a discount, the game developer is brute-forcing balance.
Naturally, a points discount is not something that can be turned on or off during a game.

I think it can be addressed, I can see some exciting ways to do it as well, f.ex.;
1. The benefits of Impetuousness could be improved to such an extent where there are enough benefits of being Impetuous that the rule can be made points-neutral. Now, this doesn't mean the benefit needs to be of equal or greater value than the drawback, but close enough that tactical application can turn the drawback to a benefit if you're able to out-play your opponent. E.g. what if Impetuous granted a burst bonus both in melee and with BS Attacks?
2. Fireteams can simply stop suppressing the effects of Frenzy and Impetuous. The Impetuous marker and the resulting skill declarations can simply be treated the same way as TacAware. With the removal of Extreme Impetuous, using this benefit is a choice and this would also make an Impetuous fireteam extremely mobile. I acknowledge that orders in Fireteams are force multipliers, so while exciting this might actually make Fireteams with Frenzy/Impetuous troopers even "worse".

 

For solution 2, you can just say to treat using the impetuous ability the same as an irregular order for fireteam composition. Using it will then remove the trooper from the fireteam, but not break the fireteam.

 

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IIRC In N2 spending an impetuous order was compulsory -- effectively, everybody was extremely impetuous. Frenzy troops in a link team would have had to spend their orders to keep from charging ahead of the team didn't suppress their Impetuousness. That's why the rules regarding link teams and impetuous troops exist in their current state.

Now there's no need for this sort of fury suppression. Since nobody is compelled to spend their impetuous orders any more, it should be fine to have models enter frenzy as normal when they kill an enemy. They will no longer benefit from cover, and if they use their impetuous bonus order they will be kicked out of the link team.

I think this will provide adequate drawbacks to justify the points discount while opening an interesting new play pattern for these teams. You could use the link like a gun-toting version of a Hungries team: move them up the table while shooting to take advantage of team bonuses and order efficiency, then "release the hounds" and set all the frothing crusaders loose in the enemy half of the table. Currently there's not much incentive to willingly break apart a non-Hungries link team, this could change if doing so would net you a bunch of extra orders.

 

N2 fireteams also suppressed impetuous.

 

Yes they did. Maybe I wasn't clear in my wording -- I was trying to say that fireteams suppressed impetuous as far back as n2 to avoid awkward questions about what happens when one guy in a team gets frenzied.

 

While I'm happy with the new impetuous rules in terms of movement (just because they'll save time and measuring), I'm a bit sad that impetuous troops no longer feel like barely contained berserkers frothing at the mouth. They simply don't get cover, and can choose to make use of a free order at the start of each turn as long as it's an aggressive one.

I've thought for a while that maybe impetuous should require a Guts roll, with the choice to willingly give in if you choose to do so. WIP is an underused stat on non-specialists as it is, and something like a soldier's 'nature' shouldn't be so easily contained, just like standing your ground under fire.

Impetuous should feel wild and reckless, and should make you feel that 'oh god he's going full Leeroy Jenkins again' more often than not; only then would a points discount be justified, because you'd expect them to do dumb things and run into gunfire with some frequency.

As it is, I agree with most people here that it feels like gaming the system, especially combined with how it interacts with fireteam rules - alongside everyone and their dogs' mothers getting Wildcard in the newer sectorials. I don't think it's a HUGE problem, but it's one of many notable ones.