1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Impetuous bikers shenanigans

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Ogid, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    That one must be a bug. It's not needed in those kind of models because they follow their controllers, but for coherency with the rest the Oznat's Preta should have these.
     
  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    Not for a motorcycle!


    Yeah, that is a problem.


    Yes, please!
     
  3. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    740
    This thread showed me again how bad the Oznat sensor is. The preta climbs away with climbing+ while the oznat is glued to the ground.
     
  4. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    @Arkhos94, check if this is ok for the answer thread:

    Yojimbo is 2 inches away of its motorcycle during the impetuous phase. How should Yojimbo move?
    a) Yojimbo must move towards the nearest enemy model following the rules in impetuous and ignoring his motorbike.
    b) Yojimbo must consider the shortest route (the one that take the less number of orders) and going into b2b with his motorbike if mounting is part of the fastest way to reach the nearest enemy.
    c) As answer b; but Yojimbo can only consider getting into base to base with his motorbike if he can do it without moving less than the entirety of his corresponding MOV value.

    If b or c are true (question above): If an enemy can be reach in the same number of orders on foot or by motorcycle. Can Yojimbo choose the route?
    a) Yes, if both paths take the same number of orders his player can choose.
    b) No, Yojimbo must go towards the enemy.
    c) No, Yojimbo must go towards the motorbike.

    If instead Yojimbo the rider is a Zondnaut and the bike a G:Sync Zondmate. Which path should the Zondnaut take?
    a) If the shortest route requires the Zonaut to mount, then the Zonaut will move to the place where the Zondmate is at the start of the order.
    b) If the shortest route requires the Zonaut to mount, then the Zonaut will move to the place where the Zondmate is at the end of the order.
    c) The zondnaut will ignore the Zondmate and will move toward the nearest enemy.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Kind of still is.

    Ramps will provide a Jump upwards vector that you have to take into account and Jumping downwards/forwards is also a possibility that I see people forget all the time when they estimate Impetuous. But it's more a case of answering the general case where you need to remember all allowed movement skills and not just go for pure Move-Move distance.
     
  6. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    Impetuous models would be the kings of Darwin awards.
    https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2019-02.html
    https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2002-38.html
     
    Mahtamori likes this.
  7. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Added to the unsolved question list, thanks @Ogid for the sum up

    Unmounted Impetuous bikers : go for the bike or for the enemy ?
    Original topic : https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/impetuous-bikers-shenanigans.34200/

    Question 1 : Yojimbo is 2 inches away of its motorcycle during the impetuous phase. How should Yojimbo move?
    a) Yojimbo must move towards the nearest enemy model following the rules in impetuous and ignoring his motorbike.
    b) Yojimbo must consider the shortest route (the one that take the less number of orders) and going into b2b with his motorbike if mounting is part of the fastest way to reach the nearest enemy.
    c) As answer b; but Yojimbo can only consider getting into base to base with his motorbike if he can do it without moving less than the entirety of his corresponding MOV value.

    Question 2 : If b or c are true (question 1): If an enemy can be reach in the same number of orders on foot or by motorcycle. Can Yojimbo choose the route?
    a) Yes, if both paths take the same number of orders his player can choose.
    b) No, Yojimbo must go towards the enemy.
    c) No, Yojimbo must go towards the motorbike.

    Question 3 : If instead Yojimbo the rider is a Zondnaut and the bike a G:Sync Zondmate. Which path should the Zondnaut and Zondmate take?
    a) If the shortest route requires the Zondnaut to mount, the Zondnaut will move to the initial Zondmate location and the Zondmate will wait for hime to mount
    b) If the shortest route requires the Zondnaut to mount, The Zondmate will move in toward the nearest enemy and the Zondnaut will move in toward the Zondmate final location
    c) The zondnaut and Zondmate will ignore each other and both move toward the nearest enemy
     
    Ogid likes this.
  8. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    723
    Likes Received:
    1,312
    This is clearly unplayable. I'll stick with moving the rider towards the nearest enemy and I'm done. If my enemy has a problem with that, I'll point to this thread and take out the calculator and the measuring laser.
     
    ChoTimberwolf and CabalTrainee like this.
  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    It's not unplayable, we just lack the necessary clarifications right now.
     
  10. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    2,947
    I think the nature of difficulty in calculating the exact right move it will be simpler to ignore the bike for impetuous order purposes.

    I realise this might not be strictly RAW, but I think for tie-breaker the end position of the model for THIS order should trump where the model might end up in a hypothetical 4 turns of impetuous moves when its seems uncertain - which I believe trying to figure if moving backwards to re-mount a bike or move forwards is likely to often fall into.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    On thinking about this and the way you declare orders in this game, the conclusion I have come to is thus:

    * Both models has to move the sequence of orders necessary to get them fastest to an enemy model.
    * Neither movement is allowed to see into the future or make assumptions about any other model's movement.
    * A biker must try and get on a bike if that's the fastest path
    * Movements are also declared prior to actually executing them, even if the execution is in the same order.
    -> The bike will declare a movement that ignores the biker.
    -> The biker will declare a movement that ignores that the bike will move.
    ->-> Typically the biker will Move to be in base contact with the position the bike was in at the start of the skill declaration step and stop there, in an attempt to be able to Mount next order.
    ->-> Typically the bike will Move away from the biker and it's not unlikely the bike will get disconnected
     
  12. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    876
    So just like I said?
    The biker is chasing his bike across the battlefield?
    I don't know if that's a good idea...

    To me, being 'impetuous' does not include reasoning and planing,
    so the pilot rushes towards the nearest enemy,
    forgetting about the bike (during the impetuous order).
     
    LaughinGod likes this.
  13. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    2,947
    Yeah i have to say that’s a terribly flimsy conclusion despite best intentions.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    I don't see how it's flimsier than the biker jumping off a cliff or running towards something you as a player know is a decoy/holoecho. I think you're expecting a particular type of movement that's something from a different game if you're expecting the movement to be exclusively straight towards an enemy
     
  15. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    Once we know the exact rules the units has to follow, it isn't hard to calculate; right now there is too many "if" here.
     
  16. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,790
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    This case isn't the only one a little odd. Impetuos have a tendency to "contradict" some rules or the "sense". For example, superjump is "optional" so... should or not should the impetuous troup do use of suerjump in the impetuous order? It isn't the same case, yes. The problem here is the timming. The impetuous movement has to complain some requisites, less order, less distance... But in which order? Because sometimes, as in this case of a "impetuous biker", it matters a lot. If we will only attendant to the disctance the biker never go back to his motorcycle, but if we check the "less order" point, then he should go and catch it.

    But probably we are overthinking a lot... An Impetous troup have (mandatory) to go over the closed enemy model and we have to choose the shortest route and the path with less orders waste. If he has to go forwards to get closer to the enemy, never he will go back for the motorcycle, because it really don't matters, you have to advance against the enemy not backwards... The order in the text description of how to move the impetuous matters I believe and we should take exactly as is wrote.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    @Arkhos94 I think the question proposed is a bit too complicated and hard to read. Since Q1C is never really an issue (a biker will never be perfect distance from their bike), here's a proposal for a more concise question:

    An Impetuous biker is dismounted and is standing 3" from their bike. How does the biker spend their Impetuous Order?
    A) The biker will ignore the bike and run straight towards the enemy model.
    B) The biker will Move 3" to the bike so they can mount the bike if this causes the least order expenditure.

    A Zondnautica Zondnaut is standing close to the Zondmate, but not touching. How does the team spend their Impetuous Order?
    A) Both models will ignore each other and move as directly towards the closest enemy model as possible.
    B) The Zondnaut will declare a Move towards the Zondmate's current position, attempting to Mount it next order while the Zondmate ignores the biker and moves directly towards the closest enemy
    C) The Zondnaut will declare a Move towards the Zondmate's final position, attempting to Mount it as soon as possible while the Zondmate ignores the biker and moves directly towards the closest enemy
    D) Zondnaut and Zondmate will declare a movement which will take them as close to the enemy as possible while allowing the Zondnaut to Mount the Zondmate in the next order.

    There is also another tangential question of which movement takes priority that I don't think matters to the Motorcycle question as much as it is a separate question of its own.

    An Impetuous model has two possible enemies or paths within the same number of orders. Which path does the model take?
    A) The player gets to choose path
    B) The Impetuous model has to choose the path that is shortest in skill declarations, and if equal gets to choose
    C) The Impetuous model has to choose the path that is shortest in inches/cm
     
    Section9 likes this.
  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    Even if we put that out of the questions, we should at least mention it; getting to a bike isn't considered as one of the clauses that allow a impetuous to move less than the maximum.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    I argue it is strongly implicit considering the rules also say you may never move away from the closest enemy unless terrain forces you to. However, keep in mind that the radius of a bike is quite large, you'd have to stand between 0.1" and 0.7" (estimated) away from it in order to overshoot the movement.
     
    Ogid likes this.
  20. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    I also think like you; but as it's implicit and not clearly covered in the rules, I'd like that when this is adressed, that will also be considered. Giving space to lawyers to argue isn't a good idea.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation