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Impact Template Issues

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by gnyf, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Palanka confirmed a ruling that said it counted as a Critical for winning the FTF but applied the effects normally to secondary targets.

    So it, kinda depends on how you understand Critical Attack (is it winning the FTF part or the skipping ARM/BTS part).

    Personally I read it that the Critical Attacks wins the FTF and Symbiomates can't be applied, effects of the critical is applied based on whether the target was the main target or secondary targets. This is because "you can't Symbiomates Criticals" isn't an effect of a Critical but rather a restriction on Symbiomates.

    But, I openly concede that both interpretations appear sound.
     
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  2. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I see what your getting at, but I think it works the other way (like you, both interpretations appear sound, it could just be the artichoke blood talking). I will add that Palanka indicates that secondary troopers, 'gets their saves' not just their ARM/BTS Rolls, and it seems to me that throwing a pokemon is the definition of a save.

    The question seems to stem from whether or not, from the perspective of the 'Mate trooper secondary target it was a critical. Each trooper under the template is resolved individually, and for it to be a critical from the perspective of that trooper (and therefore it's 'mate) the critical must match the attribute after mods. That could result in an interesting re-interpretation of my above statement, which I kinda like, wherein symbiomate troopers who happen to have the same target number as the primary can't use their mates, but those with different values can.

    Or, of course, they all can or can't. Could be those, too.
     

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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's the point: from the POV of the secondary target it is a Critical attack, which wins the FTF, it just doesn't apply the other effects of the Critical.

    For Symbiomates - I'd argue - what matters is that it's a Critical attack not that it does/doesn't skip the ARM/BTS. It's more analogous to EXP ammo, where the Trooper still gets its save vs the 'non-critical effect' rolls but still can't avoid those with a Symbiomate.

    The impact template rules make it clear that you only work out mods to the main target, not to secondaries. So that interpretation is unsound.
     
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  4. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Good points all around - I think I agree with all of this, @inane.imp. I do worry a bit about the "other troopers do not suffer the effects of the critical" bit in the Template Weapons rules, but I tend to agree with your take that this is not a critical thing it is a 'mate thing. So then it's just down to whether a symbiomate falls under Palanka's vague allowed 'saves' category or not.
     
  5. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Full quote of the rule is "Other troopers affected by the Template do not suffer the effects of the Critical, but they still suffer the regular effects of the Template. "

    Regular effect of the template allows symbiomate so I would say symbiomate is allowed for secondary target.

    PS : still no official rulling on the "do crit count as crit for hitting secondary targets" question. Something official would be nice as there is no consensus here (people on the "crit does not count as crit for hitting secondary targets" side just stopped posting).
     
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's because dlfleetw linked a Palanka post which ruled that yes, Crits do count as a Crit for hitting secondary targets.

    I can make the Symbiomate question work both ways. So I don't really know what the answer is to that.
     
  7. dlfleetw

    dlfleetw Well-Known Member

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    That ruling flew under the radar for me and it was made in 2015, we didn't become aware of it until 2017 and we are still arguing about it in 2018 going on 2019.

    You need to be a forum sage to know all the rulings or consensus results. It is an unsustainable course, but this is what we have and unless CB aburtly changes course, we will be here for the foreseeable future.
     
  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    That's why an official ruling + putting it in the solved question thread would be good
     
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  9. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    Please can we have a ruling for this, @HellLois?

    @others maybe someone could summarise the two positions so its easier for HellLois to give us a straight answer?
     
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  10. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    How's this?
    (I added Tohaa for clarity on 'Mates)

    Criticals, Impact Templates and Face to Face rolls.

    It is clear from the rules that only the main target of an attack by an impact template weapon suffers the effect of a critical hit, this usually means an automatic wound but can vary depending on the ammo used.

    How does the critical roll by the attacker affect any other targets under the template? Does the critical roll automatically win the face to face roll against them as well? Have they suffered a critical attack and so cannot use SymbioMates to negate it?

    As an example:

    A Ghazi Muttawiah activates and first short movement skill moves up to a corner to gain LoF to both a Clipsos and an Ectros.
    Clipsos declares ARO Dodge.
    Ectros declares ARO BS attack with his Viral combi rifle.
    Ghazi declares BS attack, boarding shotgun, blast mode, targeting the Clipsos as main target and catching the Ectros under the template.

    Ranges are checked and the target numbers are found to be:
    Ghazi: 8 (BS 11, -6 ODD, -3 cover, +6 range)
    Clipsos: 12 (PH 12, no modifiers)
    Ectros: 16 (BS 13, +3 range)

    The Ghazi rolls an 8 and a 20, scoring a critical success and a miss.
    The Clipsos rolls a 10, succeeding, but being beaten by the critical.
    The Ectros also rolls a 10.

    Is the Ghazi hit by the Ectros?

    If the Ectros is instead hit, can he use a Symbiomate to ignore the hit, or has he suffered a critical attack?
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Do you guys actually read the thread?

    As has been linked numerous times:

    Solkan asked: "For template weapons, a critical attack roll applies to all of the face to face rolls it opposes, but only counts as a critical roll against the primary target for critical effects such as bypassing saves and automatic wounds. Everyone else under the template get their saves against the attack. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/...her-troopers-and-the-effects-of-the-critical/"
    Palanka answered: "Yes."

    http://www.infinitytheforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/31475-[Solved]-Critical-Effect-FAQs

    So there is an official answer to that question.

    Yes, it should be easier to find.

    There isn't an official answer to how this interacts with Symbiomates. Ie whether it counts as a critical attack and they can't be used or whether Symbiomates can be applied to the effects of the Template as normal.
     
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  12. Azza

    Azza New Member

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    So basically what's been said is that the wiki/critical page needs to updated to show what all of the effects of a critical roll is overall including ftf winning which would help clarify and maybe clear up the actual template weapon section also?
     
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  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    The wiki should include the old forum ruling yes
     
  14. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Or whatever the official ruling becomes
     
  15. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I think it's already been established that IJW isn't given permission to do that. "forum correct" probably has to go through checking for wording and translation consistency before being published, and that's how they've been treating the wiki--officially published rules and FAQs.

    Next FAQ is supposed to come out on the 11th. Maybe Thursday will be a good rules day. :)
     
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Betcha a bridge mate ;)

    As to the wiki, HellLios has been updating it personally lately
     
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