Thanks for the personal attack. @ijw Please explain how you would rule the following: Ghazi Muttawiah activates and walks up to a corner to see both a Locust and a Fusilier. Locust declares ARO Dodge. Fusilier declares ARO BS attack, combi rifle. Ghazi declares BS attack, boarding shotgun, blast mode, targetting the Locust as main target and catching the Fusilier under the template. Ranges are checked and the target numbers are found to be: Ghazi: 8 (11, -6 ODD, -3 cover, +6 range) Locust: 12 (12, no modifiers) Fusilier: 15 (12, +3 range) The Ghazi rolls an 8, scoring a critical success. The Locust rolls a 10, succeeding, but being beaten by the critical hit. The Fusilier also rolls a 10. Is the Ghazi hit by the Fusilier?
Yes. Ghazi's roll is a critical hit against Locust, but a straight 8 against Fusilier, beaten by Fusilier's 10. From the Impact Template effects: Combined with the note about Critical effects it's clear - and was clear all the time - that roll that counts as a critical against one of the affected units doesn't count as such against other units under that same template.
What stiopa wrote. It's 'just' a roll of 8 against the secondary targets, so the Ghazi crits the Locust and gets hit by the Fusilier.
Still... some digging turned out this old thread: http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/...d-the-effects-of-the-critical/#comment-680887 Dude's interpretation is the same as Cartographer's, and was marked as correct in the thread (I can't remember if it could be marked only by CB members at the time). It was a bit different situation, because the secondary target also rolled a critical, but Dude accounted for it in its answer.
That doesn't say the Ghazi's hit stops being a critical, just that if either the Locust or the Fusilier had rolled a citical success, it wouldn't save the other. They're still both having to roll vs. a critical success and need to roll criticals themselves (albeit on different target numbers). I don't see how that is the case from the rules, see above.
The question is whether auto-win is also a critical effect or not. I've always seen only the first interpretation in use.
Well, if we split/define it that way, the "effects" (lower case) of the critical are to win the face to face roll, regardless of the result of the opposing dice (unelss they themselves were critical successes). This has futher, knock-on "Effects" (upper case) dependent on the order/ARO, ammo type of the weapon being used etc. It doesn't help that 'Mates rules refer to "critical attacks", but I'd always taken that to be in reference to the critical success dice roll.
It seems supported by the rule : Critical Hits with Templates Rolling a Critical in an Attack Roll with a Template Weapon causes the target of the attack (and only the target) to suffer Damage automatically and lose one point of Wounds/Structure, bypassing the ARM or BTS Roll, and applies what its Special Ammunition specifies in case of Critical. Other troopers affected by the Template do not suffer the effects of the Critical, but they still suffer the regular effects of the Template. The way I read it, this part only talk about the damage part of the critical and not the face to face part, leaving a grey area. The topic @stiopas is linking seems to go in the same direction as @Cartographer It would go against the way I played it until now but @Cartographer interpretation seems more cohesive with the general principle of "critical always wins face to face"
And I don't. I think this is just a remember of what does a Critical attack most of the time. Because, if we follow blindly what is said, a critical with a Flash grenade should imply a loss of a W or STR to the target. And we all know that this is not the case.
you guys are nuts, the wiki couldn't be more clear imo. The secondary doesn't treat the roll as a critical, how is there even an argument here? "Other troopers affected by the Template do not suffer the effects of the Critical, but they still suffer the regular effects of the Template."
Pretty much this. Main target takes a critical hit ( which is why it is important to declare who is the main target when you do speculative, for example) Other just suffer the effect of the roll, without critical.
Which leads to a situation where you roll a critical success, lose the F2F and take a hit, which frankly seems wrong. As Stiopia pointed out, it was marked as correct that the critical success counted against all targets of a template, but just to determine who won the F2F (with secondary targets needing to roll their own critical successes to tie the F2F else take the hit irrespective of what they rolled). Only the main target suffered the "Effects" i.e. the auto-wound. Since SymbioMates refer to suffering a "critical attack" as a clause for not being able to trigger, I read this to mean a critical rolled by the shooter prevents all targets under a template from using 'Mates to negate the attack, regardless of whether they suffer an auto-wound or not. Likewise in my Ghazi vs. Locust/Fusilier example, the Fusilier doesn't win the F2F with his roll of 12, as he would have to roll a critical 15 to negate the Ghazi's critical roll of 8.
One could even read that as Mates do trigger (because bearer is hit) but are unable to cancel the wound, thus resulting in a spent mate and a wound.
I'm sticking by the interpretation, that winning FtF is one of the critical's effects, and therefore affects only the main target of Impact Template. For one, it's cleaner and more consistent. For two, Impact Templates would be far too powerful otherwise.
Not really, it's consistent with all other situations where you're making multiple FtF Rolls at once, potentially with different MODs. Nobody complains (ruleswise) when one shot from a Burst crits against target A but the shot against target B is beaten.
But if the mods are the same? Basically the same Mutt shoots at 2 fusiliers now, needs 11 to hit any of them (both targets in 8-16 bracket, out of cover), rolls 11; targets need 15 to hit, both roll 14 => main target goes down with no armor roll, secondary scores a hit on mutt, since it's only a crit against the main target???
Totally agree, that's what is pushing me to rethink the understanding I had until now. Crit always win face to face is a basic in infinity. Going against that seems strange. This is how I would read it now, following @Cartographer explaination and the old infinitytheforum post @stiopa found You mean like dodging a chain rifle (on a 13) and a mine (on a 10) and rolling a 13 (making it a crit against the chain rifle and a miss against the mine) ? The big difference is, in a case of different mod, you stand a chance to roll a crit for each F2F (but not for all). Here, in this impact template situation, you cannot roll a crit for any F2F except one, resulting in a situation where you roll the good score to crit yet end up loosing. By the way, @ijw, the old forum post seems to go in the direction of crit wining all F2F roll in case of impact template/multiple target. Do you disagree with the way we understand the dude answer in the post or with the answer itself ?
