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Impact Template Issues

Discussion in 'Rules' started by gnyf, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. gnyf

    gnyf Professionel Carouser & Malingerer
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    Example:
    Neema satar is leading a triad of Ectros.
    Neema moves past a gap in terrain, exposing herself to AROs, while the reamining ectros moves up to the gap, staying outside of LOF.
    Heavy rocket launcher armed posthuman MK.4 AROs, placing the template on Neemas movement path, and ends up covering the entire triad with the template.
    Neema declares BS attack and wins the FtF Roll, leaving her unharmed.

    Neema wins the FtF having the highest dice roll (10). The Posthuman rolls a 6 in the FtF which makes them not hit Neema (she won with the 10).

    The Argument:
    My opponent argued that because the posthuman rolled a “6”(below his BS value needed to succeed) the remaining Ectros would get hit automatically, since they lost the opportunity to dodge, when Neema declared BS attack (Triad).

    I argued that since Neema won the FtF roll, the "impact" template did not IMPACT, hense the shots would'nt go through.

    The Question:
    What's right? This is a major problem, since it affects everything from light shotguns too rocket launchers.

    When are units affected by an Impact Template? On declaration or on a succesful FtF roll?
     
  2. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Your friend was right, all members were hit and Neema's roll does not save them from the impact.
    See:
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment
    for how the impact template affects the additional troopers and specifically the line at the end of the first example "Should the first Fusilier win his Face to Face Roll against the Hellcat, he would avoid the Damage from the Attack with the Impact Template Weapon. However, each of the other two Fusiliers would have to win his own Face to Face Roll using PH-3 against the Hellcat's Rolls to avoid the weapon's Damage " indicating that the main target winning the F2F doesn't save the others (who need to win their own, individual F2F rolls)

    For further clarity, see the FAQ:

    N3 Frequently Asked Question FAQ Version: 1.1
    Q: When a group of troopers activate simultaneously (using a Coordinated Order or a Fireteam, for example), and they receive an ARO from a Template Weapon, does the attack affect all the troops that traverse the area of effect at any time during the Order, or does the Reactive Player have to declare the exact moment where he places the template, affecting only some of the targets?
    A: The template affects all the troopers that get in contact with the area of effect during this Order, as everything happening during the Order is simultaneous.
    Related Pages: ARO, Coordinated Orders, Fireteams in the Active Turn, G: Servant, G: Synchronized, Template Weapon

    If you wanted to protect the fireteam, you would have had to declare dodge as their second skill, and given up shooting, though both Ectros would have been at PH-3 since they had no LOF.
     
    #2 Cartographer, Oct 2, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
    WarHound, Wyrmnax, n21lv and 4 others like this.
  3. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Here is the sequence when shooting with impact template on ARO :

    - Neema declare move
    - MK4 declare the ORA BS attack with his HRL. The Aleph player then place his template to determine who could be affected. Any trooper under the template OR whose movement path is under the template can be affected
    - Neema declare BS attack

    MK4 and Neema both rolls their BS attack

    If the mk4 pass his roll and beat Neema's roll, the template is placed and all the affected trooper are hit
    If the mk4 pass his roll but don't beat Neema's roll, the template is placed and all the affected trooper except Neema are hit. MK4 is hit by Neema

    This is what make template weapon very good ARO weapon against fireteam

    PS : in such a situation, the only way to save your fireteam would have been to declare a dodge. When a FT dodge, everyone dodge. It would have allowed everyone to have a face to face roll agains the mk4.

    @Cartographer : I think you are talking about the opposite situation : template attack of the active trooper against a group of reactive trooper (which allow all 3 fusiliers to react)
     
  4. gnyf

    gnyf Professionel Carouser & Malingerer
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    Thanks for the response!

    Think this should be highlighted a bit more in the rules and not be stated in an example.
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It's in Effects bullets 2-3 for Impact Template Weapons:
    • The trooper who declared the Attack compares this Roll against each enemy trooper affected by the Template individually. Each enemy trooper affected by the template resolves his Face to Face Roll with the Template user independent of each other; the Face to Face Roll of one affected enemy trooper does not affect the Face to Face Rolls of the others (See the example below).
    • The attacker must designate a main target, from who all MODs applied to his Roll will be determined. As stated above, this Roll will be compared against each enemy trooper affected by the Template.
     
  6. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    That is the specific example, yes, but the principal it spells out, that each target must win an independent F2F roll, applies in both active and reactive turns.
     
    WarHound likes this.
  7. MindwormGames

    MindwormGames Well-Known Member

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    Yea, you need to be careful declaring second short skills. You don’t get AROs in your Active turn, so you can accidentally screw yourself.

    You especially need to be conscious of the possibility for template AROs to clip a trooper you didn’t Activate. I’ve made this mistake before and it sucks.

    But it’s all consistent with the way the rules work. Templates get placed at declaration, and affect all troopers under the template.

    In Reactive, you get an ARO if you are affected by a template weapon. But in your Active turn you don’t get AROs, so anyone other than Activated models (with a remaining skill to declare) just have to suck it up when they eat a template.
     
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  8. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Template weapons are one of the main counters to Fireteams for this very reason.
     
  9. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    It is, just not in the Template rules. Dodge:


    Dodge and Face to Face Rolls

    Remember that winning a Face to Face Roll to Dodge an Attack does not stop the Attack from taking place, only keeps the user from receiving Damage.

    Consequently, Dodging an Attack does not stop other friendly troopers from being affected by it.

    For example, if an Attack with a Template Weapon is Dodged by its target, the trooper who won the Face to Face Roll receives no Damage, but the Template is still placed down and might affect other troopers. To avoid the Damage these others troopers would have to succeed at their own Dodge Rolls.

    P.S. By the way, now I have a question myself - can a secondary target avoid getting hit by a template by declaring an Attack at the shooter? Will that be a FtF roll? I thought the answer was "yes", but now I notice that everywhere in templates it only says about dodging for secondaries.
     
    #9 Gunmage, Oct 3, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  10. gnyf

    gnyf Professionel Carouser & Malingerer
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    My point exactly. Rules are bloaty and unclear. Some rules, you need to find in examples. Some rules have other rules attached that aren't even clear inside of their own rules.

    Hope there's gonna be a hell of a spring cleaning at some point. Because we really need it.

    Anyways, thank you all for your clarification!
     
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  11. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Third example under template weapons:


    Teardrop Impact Template example. All targets react by Shooting.
    In the same example as above, imagine the three Fusiliers now have LoF to the Hellcat, and all three declare BS Attack as an ARO. In this case each Fusilier makes a Face to Face Roll using his BS Attribute against the Hellcat's two BS Attack Rolls due to his B2.

    Each Fusilier's result only affects him, and does not affect his comrades 'Face to Face Rolls against the Hellcat.

    Let's suppose the main target Fusilier wins his Face to Face Roll against the Hellcat. In this case the Attack against him is cancelled, and the Hellcat is forced to make an ARM Roll.

    However, the success of the main target Fusilier doesn't cancel the Attack of the Hellcat against the other two Fusiliers. Each of them must to face his BS Attack Roll against the Hellcat's two BS Attack Rolls. Fusilier 2 wins the Face to Face Roll against the Hellcat who is forced to make another ARM Roll at the end of the Order. However, the Fusilier 3 loses his Face to Face Roll, and he is the one forced to make an ARM Roll.



    There's nothing quite as joyous as catching a pair of Gao Rael snipers under one HRL template and rolling that sweet, sweet crit (and watching the player look up critical attacks and their interaction with symbiomates...).
     
  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    See post #5, it's right there in the Impact Template rules.
     
  13. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    If I remember correctly, only the main target suffers the autowound.

    Edit:
    Template Weapons and Equipment

    Critical Hits with Templates
    Rolling a Critical in an Attack Roll with a Template Weapon causes the target of the attack (and only the target) to suffer Damage automatically and lose one point of Wounds/Structure, bypassing the ARM or BTS Roll, and applies what its Special Ammunition specifies in case of Critical.

    Other troopers affected by the Template do not suffer the effects of the Critical, but they still suffer the regular effects of the Template.
     
  14. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, but you can't use SymbioMates vs a critical attack, so yes only the main target gets auto wounded, but both are unable to discard their Tohaa-mon to save themselves from burning to death.

    There is a distinction between the "effects of the critical", which is a function of the ammo being used, and "suffering a critical attack".

    (having spent 7 orders last weekend, B4 vs. B2, in bad range for the sniper to finally have the [shouting in barely coherent rage font] one goddamn hit [/shouting in barely coherent rage font] get auto-negated, I celebrate crits vs. Tohaa whenever I see them)
     
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  15. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It's not a critical attack against the other targets, though.
     
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  16. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to need you to explain to me where that is spelled out.
    Because as far as I can determine, there is no distinction, not even under the face to face rules, to suppose that secondary targets (my phrase) haven't also suffered the critical attack, just that (as per the template rules) only the main target suffers the effects (which is ammo dependent).
     
  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    'Other troopers affected by the Template do not suffer the effects of the Critical, but they still suffer the regular effects of the Template.'

    My emphasis.

    The regular effects of a template are that you've been hit with a template. Note that the 'effects' of a Critical include winning FtF Rolls, not just auto-damage etc.
     
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  18. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that statement is supported in the rules.
    Criticals say:
    Criticals represent the improved outcomes of actions that resulted in an exceptional success. When the result on the die matches the value of the Attribute (remember: the value of the Attribute with all MODs applied), the action is a Critical success. The goal of the action was achieved in the best possible way. A perfect success, congratulations!

    Nothing about the auto-wound. The "effects" of criticals are listed under each ammo type and are not a function of the roll.
    From this, I read that phrase from the template rules to result in:
    1. The main target fails the F2F regardless of what he rolled (unless it was a critical success)
    2. All secondary targets fail the F2F regardless of what they rolled (unless they were critical successes)
    3. The main target suffers whatever effect is listed for a critical under the ammo type being used (typically auto wound)
    4. The secondary targets suffer whatever regular, non-critical, effect is listed under the ammo type

    Regardless, the SymbioMate keys (or rather, isn't allowed to key) off suffering a critical attack, not the effects of a critical. So neither primary nor secondary targets can use Mates against a critical roll.
     
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  19. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    @Cartographer
    I hope I have never to play against you and your try to abuse the rules. RAI is undoubtedly that the all critical effects are only dealt to the main target.
    I'm sorry for your opponents who play against you.
     
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  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Seriously? Those are Effects of the ammunition type, not lower-case effects of the Critical.