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I'll leave this out there for us to salivate over ...

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by oldGregg, Jan 4, 2019.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Oddly enough, for some people who insist on taking these firefights, they are. As I said, it would make sense burning 3 orders to bring up a Ghazi to chase a Hac Tao out of SF mode with his DTW or to lob smoke in front of it. On the other hand, a particular person I play against thinks otherwise and instead just shoots you with Tarik. On BS4. Some people do that. It doesn't produce a particularly fun game, but they do that all game long.

    The optimal result of Ramah releasing would be CB taking the time to fix FAT2 so it doesn't enhance and reward this type of gameplay and decision making while still being a cost effective skill.
     
  2. vorthain

    vorthain Well-Known Member

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    I'm late to this party, but I feel like I've been wanting a Khawarij with Mk12 for years. MSV2 is icing on the cake.
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  3. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    but just because they do that doesn't make it good. or the optimal play by any means, in fact it's probably ever rarely the optimal use of orders – and that's kind of my point. Are you ticked that, in your mind, CB is promoting people to make bad plays? People are always going to make bad plays. in fact, most of the time you can leverage someones' strategy like this against them. It seems like you're having trouble adapting to this opponents' strategy and instead of drawing up a new plan or changing your gameplay you're blaming the rules instead.
     
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  4. YhGoauld_II

    YhGoauld_II Active Member

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    I think it could be better to see the big picture. I understand you don´t like Fatality 2 however Haqqislam have no good tools for gunfights. We have only one MSV2, one TO with BS11 and our camos have no HMG nor Spitfire. In a game with camo spams, Steel Phalanx with ODD spam, Sphinx, Spetnatz, Kamau/Fusiliers link, Bulleteers and another nightmares Haqqislam needed new tools to deal with them.

    And no, ignore these nightmares don´t work because they won´t ignore you :joy:

    It could be unfair, but there are another things unfair. It´s unfair that my HI take a T2 critical hit, but I have to deal with it.

    I have a question for my Haqq brothers in arms...Would you like any new character in RTF? What kind of troop? I would like to see a Tuareg character like Yasbir, CC Specialist!

    According to new troops I would like to see Mamluks (HI, like Asawiras) or dervishes (Infiltrators, like Dailamys)!
     
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  5. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I can say this about ODD, Full Auto, TR, Marksmanship, V:NWI, V:Dogged, DTW, even Smoke. How is it engaging game play to throw smoke from outside of LOF to allow free movement? Or to allow MSV to bypass the other actions I would have to take to fight Camo?

    The reality is each of these rules opens up a new set of possibilities on the table top because they are all relatively balanced. They each introduce a series of potential plays and reactions that all interweave to create Infinity as we know it. Fatality is a part of this too. The fact that Tarik has decent odds in otherwise troubling circumstances is unusual but its not unique or otherwise game breaking because its part of what makes him who he is and why he is an attractive choice.

    For each advantageous ability there is a course of action your opponent has to take to course correct. Fatality two can be used stupidly sure. But it can also be used to much bigger effect and it means that who ever is playing against it has to think and take action to play around it.
     
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  6. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Top pick for a character would be... Anything with Fatality2! Just kidding...

    Rules wise I would want a Wildcard character that is also either an Engineer of some kind or (if it's the only way we will get another one) an Akbar Doctor.

    Fluff wise we already have 6 characters on the lighter side so I would like to see something in the vein of an HI to properly showcase Ramah's Tech edge.

    Honestly it seems like I just want Patsy in Haqq that is a non-FO specialist.
     
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  7. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    I’m a huge fan of Tuaregs, and would love to see some hit the table more frequently. Tuareg fireteam anyone?

    Triumph, you’re blowing hot air. Get the net.
     
  8. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Have we seen any Camo fireteams yet? I thought that wasn't a thing... I wouldn't mind a Tuareg character!
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's a bad rule because it's brain dead, there's no strategic play in it. It works enough of the time though that people use it. This is how the game often plays out when someone who frequently gambles on FAT2 is at the helm.

    • He shoots on bad rolls and lands the crits he's after, and gets ahead of you because he he keeps taking the unfavourable but less order intensive moves.
    Or
    • He shoots on the bad rolls and dies, and thus throws the game because he's tossing his main attack pieces out the window for no real benefit.
    It doesn't matter which outcome happens here. Either was as player 2 you don't get any real agency in this. The gambler is doing what he does, and it largely decides the game on its own. You're basically a bystander in your own game because you're not really getting a chance to make your own plays even if you're winning, because you're winning through your opponent just making really bad calls. I don't know about you but for me that's not a huge amount of fun if this binary path keeps deciding the outcome of games at critical moments, which is often on the first turn if Tarik tries to fight something he really shouldn't and bites it.

    That's why it's brain dead. There's no real amount of thinking involved for anybody here. This is why CB should do something about the skill encouraging this kind of behaviour. FAT2 makes this bad firefights work enough of the time in his favour that they feel compelled to keep taking them.


    You can do stuff to interact with smoke play like lay mines, perimeter weapons, or use MSV models to shut down movement. MSV has counters like Albedo and White Noise, but none of this is the point.

    The point is unlike FAT2 none of these skills encourage and abnormally benefit people taking stupid firefights. You can change FAT2 so it's still a useful ability worth its cost, but change it so it doesn't scale ridiculously when taking bad firefights.


    Nobody is saying make FAT2 bad, we're just saying don't make it hugely beneficial when taking bad firefights like it is right now. I don't think any faction should be aiming for a design space where they're supposed to take BS4 firefights. As other people have pointed out it's roughly about as effective as Mimetism in an even gunfight, it's when you start taking bad gunfights that unlike Mimetism it becomes waaaay more effective than it should be in terms of modifying the odds.

    And remember it's not like the rule is being balanced around Haqqislam. It's not going to stay with one faction forever it's a generic rule. Just like Full Auto it's going to start appearing in other armies eventually.
     
    #149 Triumph, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  10. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    No its really not abnormally. DTW, V:NWI, ODD. They are all rules specifically to make a bad gunfight a better choice.

    And as we've discussed the math on FAT2 is very close to the effect MSV or ODD has on a model. There are lots of fights I'll take with ODD that I wouldn't take without it it even makes a big difference in what would otherwise be a landslide. They're very much one in the same.

    All them encourage you to take fights you would otherwise lose. The big difference which Mike pointed out is that you don't see the results until after the roll with FAT2.

    I think this is the best explanation of the comparison I can give. If its insufficient someone smarter than I will have to convey the information better than I can.
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Uh, no, you've said that and I've pointed out it's incorrect. FAT2 has a way stronger effect on a bad firefight than ODD does.


    Yes, it is abnormally. As I've said your math is right out. FAT2 has a far greater effect. If you aren't willing to accept the raw stats on that I really can't help you here.

    DTWs are obviously an entirely different kettle of fish. To use them you need to get close with them otherwise they have 0 effect, and obviously your opponent is going to do his best to stop you from getting into range to use them which goes back to both players actually getting to play the game instead of one guy deciding the thing by gambling. That is also putting aside the part where they tend to be a chain rifle on a disposable cheap dude. A suicide missile, by nature of being 5pts, doesn't cause the game to spiral out of control when somebody decides to make a risky play with it. It doesn't carry the same problem of taking a stupid firefight with Tarik on turn 1 and basically throwing a sixth of your army out the window if you lose.

    It's the same for NWI and Dogged, they don't help you win terrible firefights. If you have a 15-60 firefight you don't suddenly go "hey I'm gonna roll on that NWI will help me win it." Hell no. You don't do that. But if you have a skill that jumps the odds to 33-50, some people look at that and go, "Hell yeah, that's worth a shot." That's what FAT2 is doing that NWI does not in anyway do.
     
    #151 Triumph, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  12. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    Are you maybe discounting the effect of these skills on your opponent's roll?

    https://i.imgur.com/QoBvNHL.png

    There are three fights. Tarik without FAT2. Tarik with Fat2. Tarik with ODD.

    Net shift in Tarik's favour when gaining FAT2: 8.91%
    Net shift in Tarik's favour when gaining ODD: 17.75%

    Remember if Tarik is gonna fight dumb stuff he doesn't care about winning he cares about not dieing to get the chance to fight again.

    Thats exactly what they do. They're about applying more risk to get benefit. You risk the 5pt model to get the come up. You risk a wound on a tight face to face because you get a second shot when your opponent doesnt.
     
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  13. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Once again, you're complaining about a specific person you may know or some made-up person somewhere. Your argument can be applied to so many different rules in the game .
    "Martial Arts is brain dead! its so stupid, my opponent always tries to use it, either he gets into close combat with me and whops me or I just shoot him down. The game is decided before it even starts!"
    "Hacking is brain dead! its so stupid, my opponent always tries to use it, either he isolates all my troops or I don't bring anything hackable and I whop him."
    "Impetuous troopers are brain dead! my opponent always takes them and they move themselves! He either gets up in my face with free orders or I whop him."

    You've made the same argument over and over again while ignoring my suggestion – play differently. change your strategy. deploy differently. adapt. you don't have to let your opponent shoot your models in the -6 range. maybe your opponent keeps doing the same thing because you keep doing the same thing.
     
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  14. Ultramega

    Ultramega Well-Known Member
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    When symbiomates don’t read like a rule out of 2nd ed 40k, I’ll start to worry about Fatality.
     
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  15. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Alright. Let's put it differently.
    Does it feel good to crit or be crit? No?
    Doesn't it feel worse to get crit from an opponnent with increased crit chance, even if you've stacked MODs against him? No? Too bad. Because Tarik and Spit. Khawarij are about that.
    I already don't feel that F2F roll won by crit is a deserved success. But here come these fun fellas, who're gonna empower the feeling of unfairness because of their increased crit chance. The amount of 1s I used to roll made me stop using these profiles outright, except for an occasional Rifle Tarik.
    You shouldn't win a firefight against a Hidden Deployment unit in cover, but you've just rolled a crit, good job, a skillful outplay right there..
    Oh, got pinned down by Suppressive Fire? Don't worry, you got two wounds and probably gonna crit, so don't worry about that.
    My opponents don't like playing with that, I feel bad using that. No model should crit more with high burs weapons.
     
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  16. Ultramega

    Ultramega Well-Known Member
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    Is a 21 Camo token list undeserved? Howabout a 16 order LI Invincible Army list?

    Your vision of the game is skewed and biased. Khawarij are pricey, vulnerable models. Can some of the points we spend of them matter? Is that okay?
     
  17. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    But you’re wrong though ... we just went through all the math that shows:
    A - you aren’t making plays because you’re likely to crit, and
    B - Reactive turns aren’t meant to shut your opponent down.

    Folks, this isn’t really anything to argue about. Just because you remember something happening in a game, doesn’t mean it’s happening because of a high likelihood.

    It’s like someone complaining the mtg is a bad game because they once played and got flooded. It doesn’t actually happen frequently if you’ve built your deck correctly.

    You also don’t typically win or lose a game because of this. (Read: very rarely). In fact, statistically low impact interactions like this play such a small roll in the game, they are very nearly negligible. Y’all are just complaining for zero valid reasons. Get good.
     
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  18. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Should I keep the math in my mind, when I roll another 1 along with a regular crit and hear my opponent proclaims that this skill is total BS?
    I'm not saying that this skill will make you win games. I'm saying it's a straight up boring skill that takes away any satisfaction from your actions when it triggers and is a reason Tarik and Khawarij are unwelcome guests in my community.
     
    #158 LoganGarnett, Jan 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  19. Palomides

    Palomides Well-Known Member

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    Yay! I just got some new brushes and paints for Christmas and I am ready to go!

    I would love to see some sort of HI character for Haqq, maybe an engineer or Akbar Doctor. Antarah ibn Shaddad, a warrior poet, or perhaps the great sailor Sinbad could provide a suitable inspiration. A Zhayedan hero could also be cool.

    This is an issue with the crit mechanic, not FAT 2. That you don't like the rules of the game is no reason to be upset at others using them.

    This is just silly.

    1) It's a game of dice. Luck happens. If you don't want that, play a different game.

    2) Infinity isn't pure dice, however. We can mitigate randomness by using certain tools for certain jobs. FAT2 is simply one of those tools. It is especially good at beating odds, sure. That makes the Khawarij heroic and exceptional, if risky. It is not always as good as other mods in different scenarios, which is great. Different mods should have different abilities.

    3) Part of the fun of Infinity is responding to what your opponent brings. If you don't want to let the Khawarij light you up on its active turn, kill it on yours. Trade cheap units for it. Smoke dodge. Etc.. You are capable of responding to your opponent. The FAT 2 is open information, so respond to it appropriately.

    4) AROs shouldn't be unbeatable as that's not necessarily fun, either.
     
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  20. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I don't have to deal with FAT2. I'm the only guy who has units with this rule. I'm the one who feels bad using this skill.
    I'm fine with regular crits, or when you have to sacrifice something to increase your chances to get a crit. I'm not fine with having such advantage without sacrificing anything.
    It's not fun for my opponnents either, since the only counter to that is, as you said, killing FAT2 stuff on their Active turn, which most of the time is hard to accomplish, and if you fail - you got yourself a crit-fishing monster, rampaging through your forces.