Real question, why doesnt the Invincible Army, an Army of HI, have a bare bones, stock as they come HI? I'm talking about: MOV 4-4 CC15 BS12 PH 12 WIP 13 ARM/BTS3 W2, Shock Immunity and that's it... Essentially Heavy Zhanshi(change the name if you like). In order to not encroach on too much territory I would make them Box/AVA 4 with cheap as chips loadouts, these would really represent the citizen soldier of IA. This way they dont just replace something else but become that thing IA needs, cheap useful filler. I would recompose IA with the 4 main core teams. Zhanshi as is. AVA 4 Heavy Zhanshi with Combi Rifle, BSG, SMG, SMG+1B,Regular pistols for all. Up to 2 Heavy Zhanshi can join any fireteam of ShangJi or Zuyong. Zuyong could get Regen Across the board and PH13. Shanghai Ji, I'd give BS14. Characters match these changes and match or improve their base units profile ffs. Completely redo Haidao. The rest is up to you anal retentive chaps. But I suspect those 18-20 basic AF HI would be enough to make IA more breathable.
Nah, Daofei has a point higher in most raw stats, can't climb well, and pays through the nose for it. I'd be happy enough with a Multi Rifle instead of BSG on the FO and a D-Charge on the Hacker.
If it were my game, Zhencha would be skirmish Zuyong suits, so 2 wounds but protection cut down to ARM2 Daofei are supposed to be modified Wu Ming suits, and already have appropriate stats.
I'd take climbing+ over the upgrade from CC: trash to CC: still trash. But that's splitting hairs, the Daofei is great.
I didn't even look at the CC to be honest; higher BS, higher PH and higher ARM does count for something. Not sure it counts for 12 points, but there's no denying the Daofei is more reliable as long as the enemy stays on street level. I've personally problems getting either to work for me, though. The price point is a bit rough for what they offer and I'm having problems fitting a good WBA or IA list around them.
That's... that's a zuyong. That's litterally a zuyong stat-line, albeit the zuyong has some frills but nothing major.
Nah man, Zuyong has 13 BS xD On the topic of 12 BS HI, please no more! I want my Zhencha and Hulang to be 13 BS. 6-2 move would help on both (but mainly Hulang who wildcards into 6-2 links). Also either eclipse or smoke on Hulang and minelayer with any mines on Zhencha. I want my Haidao with 3BTS, come on it's just 1 point more to pay, or considering Evaders are confirmed to be 2-3 points hand adjusted we could get that BTS for free... And Yan Huo. 3 more BTS, courage and total reaction for non linkable missile launcher. Boom IA is so much cleaner now.
So... Haidao. The basic combi rifle profile that no one cares about costs 21 points. YJ is swimming in homogeneous basic HI that are already outclassed by the other half of homogeneous basic HI. The last thing they need is yet another one.
Look at what the Haidao has... it's got 6 things tacked on in place of 3 BTS and 1 PH. Because it has and MSV loadout, there is a small argument for BS13 but. I'm talking about a dedicated Light HI. And turn the Haidao into some thing else, or turn the Haidao into this. I think you missed the point of trying make something optimized and lower in cost. But, I'm starting to think the problem lies elsewhere alltogether.
I mean, fine, take the gap filler roles away from the Haidao, sure. And then I'd never, ever use it. Because that's never been a hole that needed filling.
Really? Cause when a bunch of people complain about expense, it sure sounds like it. And I just pointed out how the Haidao is a bloated carcass and not a gap filler and like I said the problem lies elsewhere.
The only complaints people have about the cost of IA's basic infantry profiles is their poor comparison to Nomad Evaders and the like. And that's because the Evaders blatantly cheat the point formula and other units rely on similarly janky tricks like linked impetuous states, and not to do with the actual cost of the Haidao or Zuyong. I'm not sure where you're pointing out a bloated cost on the Haidao. That thing's shaved so thin it doesn't even have BTS. And it's hardly a corpse. The MSV2 sniper was the best thing the sectorial had going for it in N3, and it's still pretty far up there in N4. I'm genuinely not sure what point you're trying to address here.
And I doubt your proposed designed would be 20pts either (except maybe the SMG one), which is the point I was trying to make: It's too close to the existing zuyong to be what you wants it to be, a very cheap filler. Take a haidao, strip it from its frills and you'll get under 20pts. Also, while some IA units have been dubbed as too expensive, Zuyongs were very rarely mentionned. They're not the issue, and as others have pointed out, there are very few issues lingering with IA since N4. Hell, there are very few issues lingering with yu-jing as a whole: ISS needs a slight rework cause it took multiple punchs to the guts, and white banner still feel pretty raw, but everything else is just systemic. No need for grand rework and brand new units to fill the gaps. So while your initial post was well intentioned, from my point of view it misses the marks. Also: Basically, you play IA because you want to punch your opponent as hard as possible with as much HIs as possible, all thanks to generalized power armor and a more comfortable number of orders than you'd expect from an heavy list: the zuyong paintrain still is by far one of the funniest list archetype I've ever played, and while list building for IA in N3 was an absolute nightmare it got much, MUCH better in N4. All it needed was some breathing room in the form of less restrictive fireteams, and a slight (very slight) point reduction.
I'm sure you "ISS is good but needs a rework because it got punched in the gut"? Rework is literally a concept overhaul for a faction. "IA is what you play when you wanna play generalized HI to punch the opponent in the face" even though people complain about too much overlap? That's what you get with generalized HI. Surprised there wasnt a backhanded compliment in there for WBA. See new thread
You berated Triumph for misquoting you, and yet that's exactly what you're doing here. About ISS, I said it needed a slight rework, not a complete faction overhaul, and to developp further it mostly needs some adjustments to N4 because a lot of the things that changed directly hurted its playstyle: hacking, 15-dudes limits, supportware moving onto EVO, nimbus removal, appearance of ARO piece whose only counter is either high vis mod or absurdly high BS. It's a lot, and yet it wouldn't take much to improve it. Personally I've find the sectorial to still be functionnal, albeit a lot less forgivable than before, but I know other players whose opinion I value think otherwise. About IA, what I meant by generalized power armor is that every role in IA is covered by HIs, it doesn't mean there's any overlap. A hulang, a liu xing and a zhencha don't overlap at all. Hell, even a zuyong and haidao barely do. This issue only arise when you look at shang-ji's and their relations to the more basic line HIs in IA and White Banner.
Naa, that dude did it repeatedly even after I mentioned it to him which means he did it purposefully, over and over and over, he had no decency. Instead of saying rework say a few units or a touchup, rework means start over, often from scratch, I guess you could use the word overhaul (faction overhaul may not have been right on my part but arguably better than rework) cause it's the same engine but new parts, could have used tune up too. That's a wash imo though. "Its alot" is contrasting to "slight" or "wouldnt take much"... but "adjustments to N4" does sound a lot like tune up. See my point about how people talk about YuJing. It's like what are you guys saying. I think everyone here agrees the Haidao is an abomination. As for every role in IA being HI, well, maybe CB and everyone here is looking at HI wrong. What's the base HI profile in the game. If average PH and BS for LI is 10 or 11 and Powerarmor cannot increase a persons Close Combat skills. Then how is the base HI I suggested not the bare minimum and if people think IA is too expensive well then. Let's play that out. The HI I suggested had a CC of 15 average for Zhanshi( asian faction higher CC than average LI) but also for Orcs... BS 12 is common on cheap HI but standard for a Fusilier ( BS faction based on tech). So why not make IA base heavy Infantry the most stock bare bones thing. And No the Haidao is not bare bones, it's a zombie, it has shit it doesnt need in lieu of shit it does. An MSV SniperRifle is a bandaid for the unit but acceptable because of what and MSV Sniper Rifle means to IA. It's just nobody wants to try the difficult task of quickly saying what IA needs. Then, with my stock suggestion, pick and choose what purpose you want that HI to be. If you want it to be a HI warband, it should keep that bare minimum BS but crank up the PH, CC and gear. Hulang could be tweaked for that, it doesnt have tonhave koalas and D charges and MULTI rifle and mimetism. If people want Haidao to be the generic cheap wild card that each profile brings something needed. Then only apply courage and that BS13 to the MSV profile cause Engineer and hacker do not need it, nor breaker pistols or zero G, BS 13 or CC18 on any of those profiles if Haidao is meant to be cheap. Imagine streamlining much of the sectorial, "much" indeterminate at this time, so it can field more HI. Does a Ya Huo need CC 18, PH 13 or Heavy Pistols in order to accomplish being a shooty tank? Bioimmunity seem like a tack on but it does add a degree of durability sonits fine. These are just a few suggestion along route of thinking and accomplishes your idea of generalized HI a little better than CBs version. The bare minimum is still a HI. And the HAIDAO does not count as the bare minimum. And so no one has to scroll to my example. The lowest and standardized stats on true HI are: M4-4,C15,B12,P12,WIP13,A/B3,W2 People say Yujing is Vanilla Vanilla. Does not get more Vanilla than that. No HI in YuJing, the HI faction, should be below this. So no pseudo HI, either. And I just figured out what would make me interested in YuJing. These 4 requirements: MA on 2< units per sectorial and on every kind of possible type of unit including REMs. YuJing is almost there for that I think... Optimized AF HI countered by the occassional all-comers HI. Continue making comparable but not superior units to everyone: puppets, bikes, MSV3, eclipse impersonation, Jumper, All of it. YuJing says fuck you to everyone. Lastly, more cool asian design over tech design like the animal helmets.
