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IA: Hulang shocktroopers

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Cannon Fodder, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I’m starting to think that the Hulang almost needs to be treated like a single Zuyong or Shang Ji. If going first, use the Forward Deployment. If going second: Set up normally if you think you need to. Then move up with the rest of the force. Its’ not obligatory to do the FD. I’m thinking more of the Combi than the SMG though. The more I write this though the more I think this guy is a BS12 Psudo-HI. Even with Mimetisim, he’s not as good as a Zuyong for more points!
     
  2. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    It depends on the opponent and the map IMO, whether they can easily get rid of a pretty dangerous model lying on a roof. Starco or Aleph/OSS can solve it with a single EM grenade hit, ISS can send Sujian to deal with it, McMurrough can trade, Ghazi in a big group can jam, maybe there is a higher position etc. If it is pretty safe and there is no way to kill Hulang without a waste of orders, then slamming him as a reserve model in FD can prove to be good.
     
  3. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Or just ignore him
     
  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As a minor note, if Shang-Ji weren't so overpriced for their performance, Hulang wouldn't be so poorly off as they are in this sectorial. Hulang can Duo. Shang-Ji are Wildcard.
     
  6. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    Shangji are fine, They're better than orks or mobile brigadas. They just need little changes, to be elite troops, to have some hand grenade profile, a DA CC weapon+MA1 in some profile, maybe a Heavy flamethrower in another, take out the overlaping options with the zuyongs and place TS in fresh profiles... Just by that they'll be a better complement to zuyongs

    But Let's go back to the main topic... The Hulang.

    I've recently tried it on a tournament. I've used the 2SMG profile on 2 games, one against corregidor and the other against Steel phalanx (an achiles) list

    Against corregidor, mission Frontline, it took out an entire wildcat core team, isolate+inm a gecko and take out an intruder. Meanwile on the other part of the table A zuyong coreteam was taken down. So, he was the main reason I've won that match. Of course, it was a clustered table, with only a couple of long LOFs and the enemy was forced to advance to take positions and it remained safe inside a room up to the second turn, so it was almost a best case scenario.

    The second game was completely awful. My 5 man fireteam crashed 13 orders against a mirmidon linkteam and got bounced away. Breaker pistols, shotguns at pointblank, nothing worked out (a lot of Bad F2F rolls). And so, on the Aleph second turn It was wiped out on melee and combi fire. On my second turn I marked achiles with my daoying Lt through repeater, and then I had a chance to try to make the Signature move of the Hulang (E/M grenade spec fire+CC). The result, 3 orders wasted on trying to inmobilize him.


    I really think this troop needs a little rework. Honestly a Zapper, a E/maulet or a E/marat would have been better choices to give to this troop. The direct templates would have been better towards enabling the Hulang to get to CC. Smoke or eclipse grenades would have been nice to give it some extra survival skills + a way to get to CC...
     
    #86 Mc_Clane, Apr 24, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No they're not. Both offer the same or better performance for the same or lower cost, and that's not even counting the varuna Orcs who have Stealth.
     
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  8. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I just wrote up something about Shang Ji in it's own thread. I personally think you shouldn't compare to other forces. What matters is the context of how it works in it's own. I know i've done it many times too.
     
  9. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    Varuna Orcs (Stealth) are less polivalent, Less CC skills, No Flamethrower, Less BTS, no kinematica...

    And they complement relatively good the zuyongs. Specially the Assault hacker that linked becomes the best Yujing hacker. from -6 to -9 to enemy hackers, hacks stealth troops due to SSL2, BTS from 6 to 9, 2W, defensive template weapon...

    Of course, the main problem is how to fit it in the lists. but that's the problem to almost anything in invincible. Too many things costing 40+ points

    If taisheng was a shangji I would have priority playing the shang-ji coreteam instead of the zuyong. there's not such a cost diference between both
     
    #89 Mc_Clane, Apr 24, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    CC skill seldom matters for the Shang-Ji and is a huge point sink in most games so that at least as many times as it's benefited me (once), it has also cost me. The flamethrower and BTS are good, but amount to barely 2 points of the points burden compared to the more efficient Zuyong, and kinematica really is a weak argument.

    Yet, they're still 25% more costly and they sit in a price bracket which makes list building with sufficient orders to work objectives more difficult when that extra cost doesn't equate to an equivalent increase in exploitable performance.
     
  11. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    • Kinematika on PH14 is a goot tool to hide when odds are bad, get out of template ranges and make the enemy spend extra orders hunt you. For just 1 miserable point is not a bad skill. My hopes for N4 are for dodge to apply movement on active too so it will be nicer.
    • Just a light Flamthrower costs 2 points
    • BTS+3 cost 1p
    • Duo is another 1p
    • The main diference in cost is on the PH, CC and Shock CC. a total of 6 points between them (Yeah CC costs should be rescaled)
    The diference in cost depends on the profile, For example the HRL is fair alternative to the Zuyong ML (39 vs 36 points)

    Of course if we're talking about profile optimization, the shangji looses against a lot of other HIs... because it's better to have +1BS than +1ARM, The first one increases survival and offensive odds at the same time (that's why ARM is an expensive atribute). But that's not the point here. The zuyongs have a huge amount of weaknesses, and the shangji improve some of those. If you're somehow forced to CC or if you face a ODD/TO, close You'll be glad of having a Shangji nearby. and sometlimes the diference in cost worth it
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but did you miss where I wrote that "it's not worth the points"?
    And no, I won't be glad, because last time that happened the Shang-Ji got steam rolled, too. I might have been glad to have had another couple of Yaozao that game, which I didn't.
     
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  13. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I do understand were @Mahtamori is coming from. The most used and important stats in the game are BS & ARM. CC is used the least. After, Move, PH, BTS. Hell, size comes into play more often that CC. So the only place the Shang Ji and Zyuong really differ is the ARM and you can say that it's 10pts for 1 more point of armor and a flamethrower.
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    With how deadly the game is, ARM isn't that valuable. If we made ARM go in 3pt steps like BTS, it would probably be worth the points we currently pay for it. And yes, it would make certain models invulnerable to a lot of weapons aside from crits.


    Well, I agree with the 'not expected to survive until the next turn' part (even the Shikami suffer from that issue).

    But the rest? Yeah, the Hulang just doesn't have the tools for the job.



    This gets back to my wishlist idea of giving each one of the HI units in IA a specific tabletop role, and giving them the tools necessary to do the job. If that means dropping Zuyong to 1W+NWI so that you can put the rest of the tools in the list, fine. If that means giving the Haidao BTS3, fine. If that means giving Hulang and Liu Xing Deflector L2 (and/or repeaters), fine.


    That's great for something in a link.

    What about the unlinked troops?

    I'm thinking Deflector L2 and/or Repeaters. Not Deployable repeaters, old school Securitate walking repeaters. Pretty sure Repeaters would be cheaper than Deflector L2, which seems to run 3pts and maybe 0.5SWC. SWC is hand-adjustable, though.




    Exactly.

    Like I said:
    I think there are too many weaknesses in IA. Not that IA should be free from weaknesses, no army should be free from weaknesses. But IAs weaknesses are obvious and many.

    Narrowing that down a bit to 'everything is Hackable, but you need to be sneaky about it' and ONE other major issue would be good.




    Make that an LGL with Normal and Eclipse ammo and we're talking.
     
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  15. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    I'd be stoked just about the idea of Eclipse ammo in Yu JIng in general.
    Stuff sounds useful.
    Especially nowadays.
    When everyone and their grandmas aunts sisters neighbours son gets linked MSV2.
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Nimbus+ ammo would also be cool. that extra -3 (to a total of -6) really makes a difference in getting shot at.
     
  17. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Nimbus + DTW would also be rather cool.
     
  18. SpectralOwl

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    What about AD:4? It would certainly solve the issue with vulnerability when going second, as well as some of the difficulties closing the gap towards enemies. Heck, throw on Explode:LX, I don't think even Achilles wants to Engage a Hulang.
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Statistically Achilles thrashes the Hulang in CC so they're probably fine with it. If it's not Japanese Achilles tends not to give a shit about it in CC.

    EDIT: That's all lies. Forgot to calculate with a weapon equipped for the Hulang.
     
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Even with the MonoCCW equipped, Jerkilles has a pretty good chance of shanking the Hulang:

    Achilles - EXP CCW vs. Húláng Shocktroopers - Monofilament CCW (both using MA3)

    Active Player
    52.84% Achilles inflicts 1 or more wounds on Húláng Shocktroopers (0 W)
    39.72% Achilles inflicts 2 or more wounds on Húláng Shocktroopers (Dead)

    Failures
    20.16% Neither player succeeds

    Reactive Player
    27.00% Húláng Shocktroopers inflicts 1 or more wounds on Achilles (Dead)

    Now, a 27% chance of getting Achilles Monoshanked is probably higher than the attacking player wants to face, but there is still that 53% chance of winning the FtF.

    But in all honesty, you don't stick Jerkilles into combat with anyone with a clue in CC (CC>19). You send Jerkilles to murder his cheap stuff.


    At least assuming I used the calculator correctly for Close Combat.
     
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