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IA: Hulang shocktroopers

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Cannon Fodder, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    Before the flood of new sectorals, most factions had access to profiles that fit every role (Camo Infitrating Specialist, Basic HI, TO sniper, MSV2). It was just a matter of some factions had more or better versions than others. It was rare for a faction to be missing a skill completely (HB & MSV2). With the flood, Sectorals are more focused with unique play styles, one way of doing that is to have some sectoral have complete gaps. We see a couple sectoral having more noticeable gaps (ex:DBS missing HI). IA has a lack of non-HI troops.

    At this point I don't think IA was supposed to get access to MA and have limited access to infitration, which is ok. But sectorals need to have a minimum number of profile to keep their interest. DBS has 19 profiles which is too limited (IA has 24). I think the the Hulang are a filler. Unfortunately IAs limited number of 'playable' profiles makes it hard to have diverse lists.

    Everyone who plays IA starts with the Zuyong core, But given the alternatives its hard to move away from it. I don't really see myself playing IA much past the different versions of the Zuyoyng core with Liu Xing and Zhenchas. The rest just aren't cost effective for what they do.
     
  2. descrii

    descrii Well-Known Member

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    I had a pretty successful outing with the hulang using this list tonight:

    Team Black Tortoise
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    HÚLÁNG (Fireteam: Duo) 2 Submachine Gun, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 41)
    HÚLÁNG (Fireteam: Duo) 2 Submachine Gun, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 41)
    Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    YĀN HUǑ Lieutenant Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54)
    YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    I played Annihilation vs. OSS, and got to go first. I deployed the two yan huos and the linked haidao on widely spread rooftops with the doc and yaozaos nearby, and it had the desired effect of making Aleph button up in cover with no ARO pieces looking toward my DZ. The hulangs got to grips with the enemy quickly and had lots of very close-range engagements. They were tenacious and did buckets of damage.

    First turn I sent one hulang up the left flank toward a posthuman forward observer, but my path took me past a posthuman assault hacker in hidden deployment. I survived the first exchange and put up fairy dust, then the hulang closed with the forward observer and killed it with a monofilament crit, saving against the hacker's carbonite. I used stealth to close in on the hacker from behind and made it into base contact, but that got me near a repeater and got the asura hacker in on the game. The hacker survived my first attack and I saved against the asura's hack, and then decided not to press my luck and destroyed a couple mines with the last couple orders.

    My opponent spent most of his orders in the next turn trying to free himself up from the yan huo/haidao coverage. He wounded each yan huo and forced them to drop prone out of sight, but lost his dakini sniper, then he planted a mine in front of the second hulang with a naga. He tried once or twice to hack the hulang in combat, but with fairy dust and reset it was quite difficult and he gave up.

    I re-upped fairy dust. My second hulang tried to dodge the mine but was wounded. Shock immunity kept him going, and he went on a tear with his dual SMGs in close range engagements, killing two nagas, two lamedhs, and a netrod before finally getting too close to the asura and being immobilized. The first hulang killed the posthuman hacker in melee.

    The asura and two yadus advanced and killed the immobilized, wounded hulang, but had lost so many orders they only managed to get to the midfield without causing more harm.

    The yan huos went back into action, killing one yadu, and the first hulang outflanked the second one after it had lost the link team burst bonus and killed it.

    The asura finally downed a yan huo and then was wounded by the haidao.

    I thought the hulang performed really well in this fight. Shock and monofilament attacks kept the posthuman doctor idle and nagas couldn't go dogged. Shock immunity kept it going after a hit from a mine. Fairy dust and stealth made it a hard target even for the very skilled Aleph hackers. Clearly being able to control a lot of space with the yan huos and haidao was a big part of making the hulang work, though. Nearly every engagement they were in was inside 8" - I think only one of the lamedhs and the yadu at the end was farther than that.
     
    #42 descrii, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Aside from Annihilation being a shitty mission to play, the part bolded has me extremely concerned as to the quality of the game.

    Are you saying that your opponent's list has absolutely no ARO presence? I understand that he had a Dakini sniper was it not linked or did he not deploy it to actually shoot stuff?
     
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  4. descrii

    descrii Well-Known Member

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    He had a dakini sniper, a linked yadu HMG, two lamedh flash pulse bots, plus midfield nagas with mines, but he didn't feel comfortable deploying any of it out looking at my DZ for fear of the HMCs and linked haidao sniper.
     
  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... in a more realistic scenario people are actually going to deploy some kind of actual ARO presence. Running into melee on the top of turn 1 isn't a real expectation you can have with the Hulang, triple that when it's IA with no smoke.

    Getting as close as you did to get such an early big hit off with the monofilament weapons and dual SMGs I don't think is a realistic prospect against a more experienced player.
     
  6. Daemon of Razgriz

    Daemon of Razgriz Ninja sniper

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    Quoted just because this statement can not be more true.
     
  7. descrii

    descrii Well-Known Member

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    If you say so. I think my opponent did the right thing in that respect. First round all I killed was a 10 point posthuman FO that didn't even rob him of an order. If he'd started with his dakini sniper, lamedhs, and yadu HMG looking toward my DZ, I think I'd have killed considerably more. Yan huo HMCs and linked haidao snipers are some of the best active turn shooters in the game. Are there things this list wouldn't want to run into? Sure, but I think that's always true.

    The second round was the really bad one for him, and I think the mistake he made wasn't buttoning up his ARO pieces, it was that he spent his orders contesting board control with my long range shooters instead of digging my hulang out of the building where he was. At the end of my first round I had one hulang in suppression fire in a building, and a naga laid a mine around a corner to target him, but otherwise left him alone. I think if he'd pushed harder with the two nagas he could have killed the hulang and prevented the second turn rampage. On my second turn the hulang was able to emerge from the front of that building into basically the center of my opponent's DZ and keep cutting the pie, taking one target after another at close range.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You don't deploy cross-table AROs unless you can get a distinct advantage or force a massive order expenditure from your opponent to redeploy their attack pieces. AROs should be done mostly laterally and primarily with pieces that have some sort of escape plan if the opponent is able to bring sufficiently nasty odds and your ARO piece survives.

    A Hulang that can engage targets in the SMG range bands without taking long-range AROs is an indication that your opponent did not sufficiently do overlapping AROs or that your opponent was royally screwed for terrain. Simply put, a non-marker state melee unit should not be able to get close enough to the 0-8 rangeband. Especially not a hackable non-marker state unit.

    That said, this is theory talking and it's impossible to judge without actually following the entire game. Preferably with running analysis as it happens by the player who's playing. I.e. impossible to judge.
     
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  9. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Got my first real game in against Ramuh, and wow. Hortlaks, Namurrs, and Mukhtars, Nahabs... they're honestly just better versions of IA units, most of which aren't hackable. Worse yet, as far as strong midfield aggression pieces go, these guys all feel like they got the Hulang's gimmick right, and for far cheaper than what we pay.
     
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  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The Nahaab definitely takes a steaming shit on the Liu Xing but that's not a very hard task at all.

    Mukhtars are great but there's no real direct comparison. They can't core link and one of their selling points is NWI with a Haqq doctor embedded in the link. We weren't going to get that ever anyway. Mukhtar are power house Haris in the active turn but they fucking fold and die super quick in the reactive with no staying power and lacking sixth sense they are very vulnerable to getting jumped even by light skirmisher shit like Guilangs, Zeros, etc and dieing to that. They're PH11 and eat the -3 to dodge mines because no sixth sense, they get their shit pushed in by enemy skirmishers that can walk up to them and throw mines around the corner and gun them down with combi rifles.

    Hortlaks and Jannissaries are inferior to Zuyong. They're more expensive, don't get TacAw, and Hortlaks despite having mimetism don't have guns for tackling most head on brute force firefights, they lack a TacAw pointman with an HMG that's for sure. Ours costs 2pts and 0.5 SWC less and gets 2 orders instead of one.

    As for the Hortlak, what are you gonna do? Put an expensive Mimetism regular sniper in the link that can't even wildcard? Our wildcard Haidao MSV2 MSR leaves that for dead. Do you just want him around for Chain of Command? Ours costs 4pts less.

    Zencha shits on the Namurr. Zencha si cheaper, has Infiltration, can start on objectives, and a full blown camo state. Namurr gets neither. On top of that the Zencha is a real specialist and can do classifieds. Namurr is BS12 with no mods for gunfighting, the Zencha does a better job of fighting than the Namurr does, while also being a better more flexible specialist at the same time.

    Don't get me wrong there are some real garbage profiles in IA like the Liu Xing and Guijia and models like the Shang Ji that needed to do a total 180 on their design direction. However, RTF does not do better HI or Pseudo HI than IA.
     
    #50 Triumph, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  11. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I was comparing these guys more directly to the Hulang. Zhencha and Zuyong as they are are not problem units in IA (now, Dashat...).

    But the Hulang's problem of being a mid-field offensive piece that pays for a bunch of versatile tricks for everything without being particularly scary at any one thing feels like those above mentioned Ramuh units are just much better realized for that role, and much more competitively priced for their kits.

    As a whole though, I just don't like CB tossing around the 1.9 wound gimmick around to everyone and their dog, optimizing the shit out of it, and then calling it a day. Especially after the way they handled IA. The main thing that Ramuh got out of their Pseudo HI is that most of them are not hackable, which I consider to be a pretty huge advantage over ours, especially since we end up paying for that dubious privilege.

    And then the Nahaab/Liu Xing comparison is actually painful to look at. It's actually pretty offensive to look at the Nahaab, knowing what we got.
     
  12. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Firstly, GJ on the reports. Really enjoyed reading it, although you did got some luck bouncing off hackings ;)

    Yeah, OSS lacks CC qualities. In that case Hulangs might able to catch people off-guarded, but it will be much hard surviving their ass on ARO turn.

    About the presence of Dak MSR, Since you got your Haidao It should've solved the job IMO. Risky job, yet still one of the best tools to take out that nuisance on IA.

    I do like the idea of pressing enemy down by Yan Huo and then press forward with Hulang, buut One thing I would like on this unit is Some kind of real Camo skills. and that is how an earth Hulang's a disappointment. He won't be alive on turn 2, frankly.
     
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  13. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

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    Now, I'm not sure how relevant this is to a discussion about the Hulang, but...

    Is it just me, or is the Hulang, quite literately, just a Domaru Forward Observer who decided to bring an actual gun to a knife fight and learn how to start 8'' upfield?
    Especially when looking at the Combi Hulang and Domaru FO side by side?

    Both are specialists, except one can also Forward Observe and Flash Pulse. Both also have the same WIP, ARM, BS and BTS. Both have access to E/M grenades, except the Domaru throws them better ( Though he also needs that extra PH for his swords, where the Hulang does not, so ech. ).
    When it comes to the likelihood of winning FTF CC fights... they're basically identical ( CC22 MA3 Monofilament ( Straight to dead ) VS CC23 MA3 E/M+Shock ( Straight to being practically dead against basically anything that is not a 2 Wound LI/1 Wound + Shock Immune + NWI unit. ) ). Only significant difference here is the Domaru can opt to trade hits via Berserk or to make an Assault move, again via Berserk.
    Beyond this, if looking at the FO Domaru VS Combi Hulang, both have Combis, just that the Hulang also gets a LFT. The other profile gets two SMGs though, so it's either ''Worse ammo, less burst, better rangebands and a DTW'' VS ''More burst, better ammo, worse rangebands, no DTW.''

    I'm not sure if this is exactly relevant to the discussion, but this literately just came to my head right now...

    Am I hallucinating here or something?

    Though looking at it this way, kinda makes me glad we have the Hulang now over having kept Domarus, if having kept them meant no Hulangs for us.
     
  14. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    No, Hulang is a Proxy Mk5 if it was priced fairly.

    If you are comparing with japanese units, the closest would be shikami - same kind of a datatracker choice with focus on melee who needs to run quite a bit to the target and can climb walls. And relating to them, hulang is better due to fd2, a template and em grenades.

    dont get the hate for liu xing, that dude has won me several games on the back of successful expoding drops and multi-rifle; nahab looks okay but it is not fractaa
     
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  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Because he's hackable and it's a shitty trait to have for a unit that wants to strike deep into your opponent's backline because casual repeaters are a thing. Case in point, tonight I picked off an LT Securitate and a Chimera thanks to a Guilang working its way into my opponent's deployment zone on Power Pack. A Liu Xing had no viable drop point, and no chance to get into the area without Laxmee hacking his stupid brains out the whole way in thanks to Securitate Repeaters hiding on rooftops.

    Liu Xing is a noob stomper and a meme profile, that's about all he's good for. Better players actually protect themselves against incursions into their deployment zones and make his life exceedingly difficult.
     
  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the only thing she can do is Hack Transport?
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Triumph means when taking normal orders, not on the AD: Combat Jump drop.

    IA is really hurting for ways to handle hackers. The KHD is very costly since Wildcards in IA are max 1 and there's no decent grenade launchers.
     
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  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    What @Mahtamori said. There was no drop point because it was defended by various models including a Chimera, and if i gave the Chimera a free ARO it could hurl Eclipse onto the LT making life very difficult. So the approach needed to be made from close range using smoke to get in, and don't forget you can't drop into smoke.

    Any attempt to walk into a position to actually shoot at the LT would've been met with successive hack attempts from Laxmee. I actually had a Zencha closer but because of its HI nature I opted to spend a couple of extra orders moving the Guilang into position instead as it could also prep several mines under smoke cover before opening up on the LT without getting hacked in the process.

    Before anybody suggests using Explode, that's less than a 20% chance of working when you factor in the need to win an AD roll against Laxmee, and also gets the Liu Xing engaged by a Pupnik.
     
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  19. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    I used it successfully against the best player in our meta ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (8th rated player worldwide atm) splatted his evo hacker and another bot, took a hit from flashpulse Ikadron and took guts prone - good luck clearing out 2w unit deep into your backline. Another game against him I went AD2 and turned Liu into a supression machine, stopping McMurrough from a rampage.
    If you are afraid of dropping or somehow playing against hacker-heavy army (congratulations, you are already winning) you can always go from the side, tank mines and apply multirifle to the weak points (NWI/dogged troops or high armor baddies). Also it is always more profitable to get drop troops on 2nd turn, when most ARO pieces left their positions.

    Having no pitchers hurts but cmon haidao in a death star team gives anyone -9 on any ftfs,trying to catch Invincibles in a hacker net is a fools game - Interventor wont leave the marker to aro hack until the Haidao is put back into army transport.
     
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  20. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    I find the KHD with tinbot B a very easy solution. I actually look for repeaters and hackers. Giving a -9(redrum) on aros makes for a very one sided attack. I find the only issue is when you opponents has 3+ hackers, when you can'tsplit your B enough. I'm also a fan of the lui xing ad profile so I try a squeeze an EVO in there that can add fairdust for a total of -12 on AROs ( vs non-KHD). It's hard to deal with. You even get SSL2 so there is no chance of surprise attack bonuses on hacking.

    Now if a Fiday or something takes out your hacker first you will have a bad day on any list with hackers.

    My local meta doesn't play adhesive much so losing access to an engineer in the single wildcard slot is not that bad.