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IA: Hulang shocktroopers

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Cannon Fodder, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yanying Operative. Or simply change the Daoying Hacking Device to and add it as option for Hexa, Interventors, etc as appropriate.
    Quantum Hacking Device, access to level 1 programs and Q-ware

    Overdrive - Supportware. Friendly Hackable units gains Super-Jump. Range: Hacking Area
    Eye in the Sky - Supportware. Friendly Hackable units gains Sixth Sense 1 and X-visor. Range: hacking area
    Interconnect - Entire order skill. Up to 4 Hackable units executes a Coordinated Order.
    Interference Protocol - NFB. Hacking Area becomes very difficult terrain for enemy Hackable units. 2 turns.
    Deep Scan - Supportware. Friendly Hackable Units gain Fatality 1. Range: Hacking area.
    (If a unit leaves Hacking Area, it loses the Supportwares immediately - don't jump out of Hacking Area if you want to use fall-damage reduction!)
     
    #21 Mahtamori, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  2. Stuffist

    Stuffist Well-Known Member

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    I like it! :D

    Support to all hackable friendly units seems a bit too much though. I mean, not the bonuses but the "audience": it literally includes all HIs (of non-retarded factions ;P) and remotes. And it basically transcripts as "the whole army" in some cases.
    And I think adding Super Jump to a complete army is a bit too much. I think X-Visor + SSL1 could be fine (because if you have bad weapons or poor shooting ability, it helps but it won't turn you into a killing monster).
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I know, but since it's not like Fairy Dust you have to manage your Hacking Area (and by the way, can't have both Super-Jump and Fairy Dust). For IA this translates to having that Panggolin FTO tag along to run these programs.

    I tried keeping it reasonable, which might be a mistake, and cater to smaller fireteams than 5-mans
     
  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    And TAGs and all hackers, for that matter, as far as my understanding of the wording goes.

    Also, I wonder if Interconnect could use some extra limitations.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hackers do not have the Hackable characteristic

    And if we were in a design meeting as CB employees, I'd table the suggestion that while Interconnect is active, Coordinated Orders with only Hackables requires 0 Command Tokens. Though it'd be nice to have something supportive that's not a Supportware
     
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I've only used him 4 times. One in Dahshat and every time he's been disappointing at best. Not enough armor to be a real heavy. Easily hackable. Meh weapons I think too. Really disappointing for me because I wanted a guy that could kick ass in CC.
     
  7. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Once the honeymoon phase of the Hulang came to an end, and people became aware of its tricks and its toolkit, I find myself having a really hard time fitting him into anything. He's got a fun and interesting toolkit, but he's vulnerable to so much and his stat line just comes a touch short in too many places to really justify his place. For 10 points more, I can get a Daofei or a Su Jian to push the mid field. For 10 points less, I can get a Zhencha, who's kit is safer and more reliable.

    With all the min-maxing pseudo 2-wound infantry going on with everything that came after IA, the Hulang just struggles to bring its value to the table in comparison. His kit is eclectic and interesting, but fails to cut any of the corners that CB has been slashing left and right on so many similarly minded mid-field playing units.
     
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  8. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Hulangs are missed designs.

    They should got at least one tool to approach the target.

    IDC it will be smokes, Camo skills, or movement speed/skills.

    They are just plain lackluster MA Zuyong without almost no self-defence, and I am more than ready to laugh at brainless charge of Hulang. You could do better with Zhencha or a simple Zuyong HMG.

    Frankly aside from fluffs, I think returning Shikami will be total better decision.

    Still I like their cool fluffs of being disciples of Master Shaolin.. But :P
     
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  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Very much agree with this.

    The Hulang need *something* to get them to their target. OK, so they've got Forward Deployment L2. They can start the game 4" from the centerline. That's great. But if they need to move more than one order to get to their target and push the button, well, the military description would be "ass hanging in the breeze."

    I'd kinda like smoke. Maybe Eclipse Smoke, to ruin the day of those MSV-using types in PanO.
     
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  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    This seems the most sensible approach. It would also prevent Haidao MSR from getting even more powerful.
     
  11. SpectralOwl

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    Funnily enough, the one game I played with the Hulang he absolutely dominated because we had Zero Visibility zones on the board in lieu of some scenery due to a shortage. Had no trouble closing in until he hit an Asura, and managed to take that down with Spec Fired E/M Grenades. The Hulang can seemingly be a nightmare on weird tables, so check your meta, I've seen some pictures of tables in France that would be just as perilous for its foes.
     
  12. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Interactive terrain affects value of some troopers a lot.
    Difficult terrain can be absolutely strangling for some pieces, LVZs and saturation can cause value of links, MSV1s etc. to change all over the place, and default ZVZs... Yeah.
    People rarely play with those rules in place though, as far as I can see.
     
  13. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Once I had the chance to ask an official IA tester how was the Hulang supposed to be played. He just limited to say it's the unit you keep in reserve to deploy last and that you make use of stealth to move undetected without worrying about repeaters and that you try to make as much as damage as possible and push buttons with him in your first turn as it's not expected to survive the next turn. Which thing puzzled me, as this unit is badly designed for that purpose. A tester is telling me to use the unit as a killer missile when it clearly lacks the tools to efficiently perform that duty, furthermore, it's a 40+ pts missile that can't guarantee reaching the target. That tester is a pro player, but his answer seriously made me question the quality of CB's playtests.

    The unit is definitively lacking something. First of all, and according to the background, if there's a unit in IA that can justify Frenzy it is the Hulang. Actually they should have frenzy to keep trustworthy to fluff. That alone would give them a generous discount, reducing their cost around 8-10 points, which would make them more fieldable in the tightly packed lists of IA. Some people suggest giving them some kind of smoke, personally I would give them limited camo instead. That would help to disguise their deployment and give them a chance to reach their target. Also it's fluffy due to Hulangs preference for night raids. And finally I would add one option with a pitcher, which would allow our KHD Hai Dao to support them and synergize well with the Liu Xing.
     
  14. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    :joy::joy::joy:
    You're being delusional. Frenzy doesn't provide such a discount. The frenzy discount is about 5points not 8 nor 10 points

    I suppose they didn't give the frenzy trait to any invincible troop because they want them to be "martial" and behave as proffesionals. Although I agree that frenzy could fit under the Hulang description.

    The first problem with limited camo is the linkable trait. they're not gonna give camo to a linkable troop... Of course they can make an special profile but it's an unnecesary complication. Is better to take out the fireteam duo (and one point less that's enough to provide limited camo). The second one is the fact that the limited camo is a one time thing that can fade out sooner than expected and leave you vulnerable. On the bright side you impose a sweet -6 to the adversary on CC with supprise attack, and it provides some defense against especulative

    On the other hand, Eclipse is a good defense against long range shooting and it also is a super efficient tool towards CC skills. The enemy's can't shoot or direct template you, even with SSL2. so it will make the hulang a cool tool against linkteams. Of course you depend entirely on your CC and your roll.

    The hulang surely needs one or both of them to work out, But I feel it's not enough until the cost drops to a Mid cost skirmisher cost (30-35). specially seing the Invincible average cost.

    One of the hotspots to review is the CC cost. How many points cost a CC atribute of 24? 6, 7,8 points? plus MA 2-6points, plus a decent CCW 2-3p. You're paying the cost of an HMG but you need to spend 3-6 orders to even begin to use it on best case scenario... they need to be at least as the BTS cost or lower to be more cost wise. As it is now, I feel it's more of a handicap than a tool

    Another thing to take into account is the hackable trait... and the vulnerability to E/M. Under my opinion this troop should get a discout from that or pass to be a MI (and the haidao too in order to be of more use as a fireteam engineer)

    Those are in my opionion the main points to review.
     
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  15. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Right now, Dahshat, I have a choice between McMrough and Hulang. I'm taking MrMrough every time. He's an un-hackable heavy, with better MA, movement, CC, I think CC weapon too, grenades, smoke grenades, Super-jump, Total Invulnerable, for 12pts less!
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah those McMurrough buffs definitely just confirmed the Hulang's dead weight for Dahshat. Absolutely no reason to take him between the uber dog and uber ninja.
     
  17. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    What sucks for me is that I really want to like them? I guess I can't say Yu Jing was always the CC faction but they Should be! Some would say they were when JSA were there but unfortunately MO I think had it. They had just as many HI for a while and more with Marital Arts. Anyway, if they cut his cost down to about 30pts. I'd take him. But as of now, no.
     
  18. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Frenzy discount plus eclipse or limited Camo would make this model significantly more appealing.

    Or we can start with the bring an HI discount instead of frenzy
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    As someone who sent Oniwabans through knights like a hot knife through butter.... yeah nah. JSA were well above MO for CC prowess.

    CC21 and MA2 doesn't get anywhere fucking close to CC25 and MA5 with monofilament weapons to boot.
     
  20. Daemon of Razgriz

    Daemon of Razgriz Ninja sniper

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    So.....


    Let me preface this by saying that I'm that guy that will try to make "sub optimal" profiles and units work. Really study and playtest to find that niche that the designers intended for said unit/ profile. Strategies, etc to use things. I'm the guy that showed how mid field, infiltrating snipers ( particularly the ninja sniper, hence the tag) worked. Ask @Section9 . I was the one over 2 years ago explaining how to use a Tiger MSR. When the Zencha was released, I said that it was fine and good when people were saying it was bad. (Thankfully they saw the light.) And among other things that I've found ways in other armies. Now I'm not saying this to toot my own horn or talk myself up as this font of wisdom. But to say that in light of all this. I really can't make this Hulang work. I tried. I really tried to find a way to make it work.

    I kept quiet on the forum to see what other players thought of it. Proposed changes or directions that others felt it should lean to.

    Now i quite agree with @Triumph on the topic in the dashat thread that it's not Dashat that's the problem. But IA. With the exception of the Hulang. I'm loving all the new units in vanilla. (Aside from a little shift in focus for Shang Ji to be the point men of the links rather than full teams. And i was the one saying that Shang Ji are good. Which they are, but could use a slight streamline of loadouts. But that's another topic and not one i want to cloud this topic.)

    Now after discussing some changes with some mates and even playing two test games with a mocked up profile and as close as we could get to a points cost for it. We found it had a much better focus in what we felt was it's role as first turn objective grabber followed by a blitzer into the enemy line to assassinate units heading into the midfield to contest objectives or set up fire lanes. Now two games means Absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Not even worth collecting data from. But against a vanilla Ariadna list (highly classified) (loss3/6) and a NCA list (safe area) (win 7/4) both myself and my mates felt that the unit felt more in sync with what we felt it was supposed to do.

    Now, this is by no means me saying that this is what the unit should look like, or that this is even balanced. Rather i feel confident enough to bring an idea of a direction i feel that the Hulang should go to make it feel more like that first on scene securing the zone/ objective. Followed by that wildcard* element as they work independently from the main force to sow chaos and take out key pieces from the opposing force.

    *Not the rule wildcard, but the military equivalent term.

    Now. What i felt was to remove duo from them. Give them frenzy to give a points discount plus fuel impetuous orders later in the game once objectives are taken and the killing starts. (These are points I've seen reflected above.) But the big change is to give them ambush camouflage.

    This i felt, kept them safer in the opening phases of the games plus gave a degree of protection and shell games vs the NCA in the game played as i went second there. This also kept the regular camo to take objectives, re camo and allowed that vital camo to close to the enemy to start the cqc killing. Obviously, once frenzy kicks in, it's back to mimetism anyway, but we felt that it worked and balanced out the toughness and MA with the mono CCW vs a little bit OPness if you could just continuously re camo and strike. Now the math is probably off and feel free to re cost it from those who know the costing better than me. But we thought that we'd save about 7 points with removing duo (1pt) and adding frenzy (-6pts?) then adding ambush camo on top of mimetism was 4 pts. To lower the cost by 3 points. Our inspiration for this take on it was the Igao from Tohaa. We were watching a game, and one of the guys said. I wish the Hulang could do that.

    Like i said. This isn't to say that this way i built it is correct. Rather i hope we can use something like this to guide a positive direction we feel the Hulang should go. An idea of a direction if you will. If you want a more in depth look at our test games. Ask away. I wont claim they are perfect tests. In fact i would agree it's the opposite. But it just felt easier and more natural to use the Hulang with those changes. We're still looking at other ideas, like giving him super jump as an alternative approach method among others. But this build discussed felt more natural.
     
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