1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

IA fireteam changes

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Mar 24, 2022.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,270
    Likes Received:
    5,797
    They either need a gimmick or they need better fireteam options to compete with Shang Ji, they're never going to be a serious choice otherwise unfortunately.
     
  2. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    1,986
    I fully expect them to receive an overhaul and re-release at some point down the line when a new sculpt is warranted. They are already a bit out of scale now, but it will probably take another couple of years for CB to tackle this.
     
  3. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2019
    Messages:
    441
    Likes Received:
    942
    The sculpts for the Yan huo are awesome. Especially the HRMC. In my book courage, arm and bts 6 and bs dmg +1 would be enough to make Yan huo good. I wouldn't say no to a linkable HRMC. It is really powerful but the Yan huo should be powerful... TA or NCO on the Yan huo could be another option to give IA more oomph. Or total immunity...? Just brainstorming here.
     
    archon and Chaserabinov like this.
  4. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2017
    Messages:
    450
    Likes Received:
    623
    Yeah, but there's a point where you can't win face to faces *anymore*, which is why the burst 6, 5-man core linked HMG on the kriza boracs can have mimetism -3 and still not be game-breaking! A burst 6 HRMC on an otherwise very vanilla Yan Huo is no meaner than a Mimetism -6 Multi-HMG on an Avatar, which has been in the game forever. The flavour of the Yan Huo is simply that it has good BS and bigger guns on an HI than other factions can manage, so why dial that back for the sectorial that should gain flavour from HI links with varied heavy weapon options.

    In my opinion, the premier heavy weapons platform in the Yu Jing army should just be able to link and fire its big gun. Haris rather than core is a reasonable precaution, but the FTO nonsense is silly. Then it also sits in a better internal balance place also - a more static anti-armour heavy weapon versus the more mobile and order efficient Shang Ji.
     
  5. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    769
    Likes Received:
    564
    At least you can have two high BS (14+) B5 shooter if you take both - Shang and Yan to the show. Sure it´s 100 pts (or a TAG) but you can cover two flanks. Its a niche but a high B niche :smiley: Or make it three times B5.

    for example


    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    ZÚYǑNG (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Machine Gun / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (1.5 | 37)
    TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Flash Pulse ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 39)
    ZÚYǑNG (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (0 | 28)
    YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / CC Weapon, Heavy Pistol. (1.5 | 48)
    DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse ( ) / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    4,758
    Likes Received:
    3,745
    Of course not. I'm just posing what you CAN do. I think the HRMC by it self is better than MMHG in a team by far. Though I think there's something to be said for the ML.

    I went against Taskmaster+ Morloks today. One Haris of TM Rocket+2 Morlocks and a Duo of TM Red fury+Morlock. They are much improved with the Morlocks now I think. Unfortunately due to timing we didn't get to play the game the whole way. The duo alone is good for them. It's almost a peripheral. But getting smoke chuckers now with +1 Burst and their own gun is rough.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,270
    Likes Received:
    5,797
    My big complaint about that list is it's spending too many points just to justify the existence of the Yan Huo. There's not enough room to go around and it's cutting corners just to get it in. Specifically ARO tech, that list is highly vulnerable to just getting run the fuck over, its ARO presence is minimal basically putting the world on top of the Haidao's shoulders. There's no defensive ZOC tech, and basically no throwaway ARO tech and no recursion either.

    However I don't hate the idea you're onto with the Yan Huo basically playing fire support for the Haris. I think if you play the same idea with some changes at 400 and spend the extra 100 points shoring up the defensive issues it actually comes out ok.


    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15)
    ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16)
    ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
    CHIEF JEONG K1 Combi Rifle, AP Mines, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
    SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38)
    TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Flash Pulse ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 39)
    YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / CC Weapon, Heavy Pistol. (1.5 | 48)
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
    KOKRAM (Forward Deployment [+8"], Minelayer) Heavy Shotgun, E/Mitter, E/M Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 41)
    YÁOZĂO PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    YÁOZĂO PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    PANGGULING (Total Reaction, Repeater) Combi Rifle ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 19)

    8 SWC | 398 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I might give that a run at some point. I still don't think it's the optimal choice for the army, I think you'd get more value overall by compacting the Yan Huo into the Haris (by turning it into a Shang Ji functionally) diversifying into Zencha and other things but it's not horrible and I think it's functionally better than trying to run the Yan Huo in Vanilla.
     
    #67 Triumph, Apr 17, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2022
  8. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2019
    Messages:
    477
    Likes Received:
    317
    On the topic of Yan Huo but not in IA.
    I'm starting to play with some weird Duo's in Vanilla to spice things up a bit. My new favourite toy is Mowing Spitfire+Zuyong TA TinBot Duo. Considering Daoying as LT these 2 boys even alone in CG have 5 orders to use. But they sometimes need someone to free them from DZ against strong MSV sniper. Usually I would run Lunah or Knauf, or even coordinate Yaofangs but lately I wanted to give thicc boi some table time. I also like the fact of having 2 S5 underappreciated units on the table at the same time. Extra value when you go 1st, pay for extra reserve and just slam these 2 at the same time and notice very confused opponent :)
     
    valukr likes this.
  9. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    769
    Likes Received:
    564
    Didn´t you notice the Warcore in G2? What more ARO you need:smirk: But yes its only an example that 3 times B5 is doable and on 300 pts you have to take comprimises. In a 400 pts list this is much more comfortable.
     
  10. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    994
    I did a partial survey of haris links currently in the game, and if you could haris the HRMC Yan Huo I think it would legitimately be kinda busted. The profile could really use something, but b6 bs13 mimetic vanilla HMG isn’t quite like b6 bs14 firing AP rounds clear across the table, with b2 DA in ARO. If you don’t care about moving it much, you can get that with two panggu FTOs for 72 points. That’s tough for most other factions to match without a TAG; the bare minimum cost for a Ratnik haris is 106 points, and the minimum for a Kriza haris is 99 points. The Yan Huo has better BS and rangebands than either, and a more powerful gun. After that you’re looking at things like a CJC Gecko haris with two Diggers (84 points, lower BS, worse range bands, b5) or a Dragao or Zeta. It’s even sort of got a leg up on Szally, since you can park a yaozao nearby and reroll Doctor checks if needed, which might trump the TAG’s mobility depending on the board.

    Basically, I’m pretty sure that giving the profile something else instead of haris linkability is a better solution in terms of internal game balance.
     
    Savnock likes this.
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,666
    Likes Received:
    14,724
    I don't think the Yan Huo HRMC needs much. It's competing with Shang-Jisus who for the same points have a point lower ARM, burst and BTS while benefitting from more useful BTS, PH, and that extra order. It's not a massive difference, though we shouldn't forget the larger base which makes Yan Huo slightly worse which is a net drawback
    The other loadouts need a bunch of love, though. MHMGs are in general overpriced in my opinion, they have a significant extra cost compared to the extra costs that regular multi weapons have, and the dual missile launcher seems to be paying overprice for the extra burst just to keep the loadout similar to the MHMG in cost. Add to it that Neurocinetics isn't a benefit, but a drawback, and really shouldn't increase the price.
    In either case, I do hold that I'd like to see these be made into dedicated stand alone pieces; remove the FTO profiles, Double Shot on missile launcher so it gets 2B in both active and reactive, Neurocinetics on the MHMG, and no change on the HRMC. Add Courage and maybe nudge BTS up to 5 if you're feeling extra spicy and you're done.
     
    darthchapswag and Amusedbymuse like this.
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,270
    Likes Received:
    5,797
    It's not just your opinion, they cost the exact same as a HRMC which is functionally a MHMG with +1B and mildly better rangebands. There's absolutely no goddamn reason they should be costed the same.
     
  13. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    1,986
    MHMG also gets EXP ammo in anti materiel mode instead of DA. Not sure how much that affects the pricing but it's something to consider.
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,270
    Likes Received:
    5,797
    These units aren't getting put on ARO duty outside of pure desperation, they cost too much to allow your opponent to forcefeed them a high end attack unit's AP gun. It's nowhere near the value of getting +1B in active which you are going to trigger way more times when attacking.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    11,666
    Likes Received:
    14,724
    I mean, with the comparison it's either going to be the HRMC that's too cheap or the MHMG that's too expensive. Obviously we're in agreement that the MHMG is of limited use even if we don't necessarily agree if the HRMC is good enough or not (I'm leaning towards good enough, I think you're not).
    At least I think there should be no dispute that there should be a bigger difference in cost between these two guns, and in the case of the Yan Huo there should be a more clear difference in combat role between the loadouts since the price difference is still not going to be very big and that requires a bigger difference between the mutually exclusive skills.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,270
    Likes Received:
    5,797
    My baseline on the solo HRMC Yan Huo is it was just good enough in N3. I played it in Vanilla every now and then and it was just passable.

    With active turn firepower creep in N4 I don't think it qualifies as having kept up enough with the 0-2 MOV stat increase. I think it's fairly easy to classify as sub par. It's not unplayable, but it needs help to be a legitimately solid option.
     
    #76 Triumph, Apr 19, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2022
    Mahtamori likes this.
  17. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    4,758
    Likes Received:
    3,745
    We know CB does like to stay within theme so I can see them with +1 Damage. I'd almost be fine with that alone. But I'd also like them to have BTS6 with their Bioimmunity. Also within "theme": TacAware, Marksmanship, Sensor, Triangulated Fire, MSV, X-Visor, Tinbot: Firewall, Sixth Sense.
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,270
    Likes Received:
    5,797
    It really wouldn't, crunch some numbers. There's plenty of crap that already outshoots a hypothetical Yan Huo HRMC in a Haris, even non TAG stuff. Karhu in a mixed core for example, Dakini links, Swisse Guard....

    Even in the same sectorial the Hac Tao HMG outshoots the Yan Huo HRMC Haris vs a KoJ ML core linked just because the Mimetic -6 swings the number of hits going through in favour of the Hac Tao.

    The Yan Huo's moment is when AP actually really matters, so vs large TAGs and nothing else, but ask yourself who the hell is leaving their TAGs out in sight vs IA who are crawling with long range AP guns anyway.... also the Karhu and Dakini and shit are all still better shots.

    A Dakini core with the B3 AP MSR performs better than a Yan Huo running on B6 even against ARM10. Again, all the MODS swinging the likelyhood of scoring a higher number of hits has a more significant impact than the raw burst.

    The HRMC in a Haris is far from the top end of apex gun fighters. Yeah, you could make a very fragile but cost efficient glass cannon Haris with it that would struggle to push up the table or have meaningful impact on the game beyond shooting from the safety of the DZ but even then there are still going to be plenty of units running around like the Avatar that still outshoot the shit out of it in most cases so I ask you again, would that actually honestly be broken?

    I certainly don't think so. We didn't even touch contemporary apex 24" gunfighters like the Vostok+Jag/Moderator/Securitate Haris which makes a joke out of this too.
     
    #78 Triumph, Apr 19, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2022
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation