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I think the change to Total Immunity was a mistake

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    No, I gather experience from international ITS and tournaments across Europe, chats as well as mathematics.

    Fat2 is, by far, one of the most unhealthy mechanics they’ve ever introduced in the game, right next to Mutts.
    The low effort for both things compared to the enormous investment the opponent needs to put down to counter both those subjects are inexcusable from game balance perspective.

    PS: the second most unhealthy mechanic they’ve added is Counter Intelligence on order spam armies. Really tilts armies like Vanilla Aleph and Vanilla Nomads, as well as undermining the value of Limited Insertion lists.
     
    #81 Zewrath, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    What did that testing entail? Talking about it in a post on the main site might inspire more confidence.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Except that Domaru are probably in a worse place than Karakuris, balance-wise, so this makes no sense.

    They don't *need* to be, no, but they almost always are costed according to a formula.
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Starting with the last post first, then going back to the beginning.

    And CB claims to always follow their pricing formula. This is why I wish they'd stuff all the profiles into a database that treats points cost as a formula field, so that when they change the points formula it gets changed for everything effected.

    Most recent examples before this would be Combi+LSG and Drop Bears costs taking at least 6 months to reflect in Bolts.


    I generally agree with this, I was expecting to see a lot more Vulnerabilities listed.

    However, TI being able to choose ARM or BTS is completely in keeping with Bioimmunity:

    BIOIMMUNITY AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Obligatory.
    REQUIREMENTS
    EFFECTS

    The user is immune to the special effects of Bio-Munitions - including Shock, Viral (see Infinity: Human Sphere) and any others within the Bio-Munition Category - treating them like Normal Ammunition instead. However, player can choose to roll ARM or BTS.



    Very much agree with this, I was expecting to see a lot more Vulnerabilities listed.



    I'm not sure I agree with that, because one of the other N3 design philosophies is to have a rule sound like what it does. Low/Poor visibility zones and Smoke/Eclipse grenades, for example (as opposed to a Zero-Visibility zone that MSV2+ could see through and a Zero-vis smoke grenade that MSV2+ couldn't see through.)

    Total Immunity now does exactly what it says. Should units with TI have more vulnerabilities? Almost certainly.


    Yeah, Sun didn't change in price but also has unlimited TI. McMurder did change in price, but I think he went from XImp to regular Impetuous at the same time.


    Agreed that there should be a lot more vulnerabilities getting used.
     
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  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @Zewrath so by your own study how prevalent were Tariq lists as winners places in the previous ITS season, how prevalent were in top Haqqislam places and how prevalent they were over other Haqqislam lists?
     
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  6. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    It was also tested ^^ (xD)
    Brainfart a bit ARM3 (I messed up with McMurder). I was refering to Dogfaces.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So... ARM 1 for at least one of those wounds, possibly more than one.
     
  8. DarkBlack

    DarkBlack Well-Known Member

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    I really like the change to the rule itself. Having total immunity do what it says on the box with a list of exceptions right there is much easier and more intuitive. It's also more flexible in terms of designing profiles.

    Not sure about the balance implications to existing profiles though.
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Domarus behave completely differently to Karakuri and have different targets. Need to bully a TAG or a HI link that pushed into the middle of the table? Domaru do that much better than Karakuri. To which point the best Karakuri Haris is one that incorporates a Domaru which can dig them out of CC if Warbands engage them.

    Could Domaru use a tune up? Yeah, probably, most things that are CC oriented aren't costed very well. But CB buffs or ignores what they please on a whim. Again, Guijia. Begrudging JSA a buff to one unit just because you think CB should buff a different unit of theirs first is petty behaviour at best.


    Nobody with a brain is going to storm your backlines to kill cheerleaders with Sun Tze. We have Su Jians for that. Sun Tze is an ARO piece that can be used to sweep lategame.
     
    #89 Triumph, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  10. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Seems a bit of a storm in a tea cup overall. Internet forums produce hyperbole innately I guess. Total Immunity is only on very few things in the game and they are meant to be tough. Some of them could maybe use an extra Vulnerability (Stun for dogs at least) and maybe mono should uniquely ignore Total Immunity.

    But overall it seems a nice change. People just psychologically exaggerate the effect of change in the short term before they come to terms with it. Then they get used to it and find ways to deal with it. But there are already far more scary things in the game than Total Immunity.
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm with you on this. Nothing wrong with clearing up the language. And I don't mind it making K1 less useful against TI things, but there needs to be more vulnerabilities, and it shouldn't work on non-lethal ammo.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You won't catch me saying the Guijia couldn't use a tweak. But the issue is, by only "fixing" Karakuris CB is essentially signalling that that profile is playable and the Domarus aren't. Either fix everything or don't bother; but I have a sneaking suspicion that this wasn't a rebalancing effort and, contrary to what @psychoticstorm said, they weren't playtested.
     
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I meant more along the lines of CB will buff a model in faction and ignore another. In the Guijia's case, redo an entire sectorial and not touch the Guijia.

    I agree with you they should take the time to tune up Domaru, but they have a clear habit of skipping stuff entirely even when applying faction wide changes so I wouldn't read too much into it and for now I'm not going to begrudge JSA getting better Karakuri.
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    This wasn't a rebalancing. This was a change to make the rule do what it said.

    https://www.infinitythegame.com/blog/item/658-daedalus-fall-new-rules
    Bold+Italics emphasis mine.
     
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  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I'm not bothered by it in Tunguska or Shasvastii (or even Spiral Corps to an extent, due to their somewhat limited choices for active turn shooters), but it's a huge problem in the vanilla flavors of those armies and in Aleph/OSS due to the order counts it hits so easily.
     
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  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Total Immunity itself just does what the name says now - ignore ammunition types. Problem is that none of the troops that have it were designed around it working like that. Slapping a few points on top doesn't make up for TI invalidating certain kinds of troops that live and breathe through their ammo type beyond just hitting harder in case of Viral or DA.
    Downgrading any kind of CC weapon to Normal ammunition makes CC very inefficient against them with Monofilament troops, the new interaction with E/M is clunky and doesn't make sense next to Adhesive having full effect.

    The biggest effect is against troops relying on Flash and Stun ammunition. To be frank their effects are probably overpowered, which is why everyone utilizes them, previously nothing could shake off a Warcor's Flashpulse crit. The Avatar could be invalidated for a turn by a 3 point idiot and his flashlight rolling a crit and there was nothing the CA player could do about it if it happens.
    Oneshot mechanics are always bad and while they exist in other places those tend to be severly restricted by the platform they are mounted on (Monofilament) or can be reversed with an Engineer (E/M, Adhesive).
    This problem is something the game's most expensive pieces, mostly TAGs, always had their struggles with. Chewing through humble Flashpulse Bots is a gamble and if it goes wrong you're screwed. Hacking, Isolation and most other effects are reversable in the same turn if you are prepared for them, getting Stunned is final, no way out of it for the turn.

    Or at least that is how it used to be. Total Immunity now lets the troop with access to it completely ignore an indefinite amount of Flashpulse/Stun AROs on top of invalidating Ammo types that previously seemed to be designed around working against Total Immunity.
    On troops like Valkyrie and McMurder (who also gained Berserk) you can now click to delete the best CC troops in the game and live to tell the tale.
    Pretty sure no one bothered much to test the TI changes respective to its effects on CC.

    Then there is the issue how the rule plays out on a table. We all know that a TAG can be wet paper when up against the right counter, that is on top to dying to normal bullets eventually and their relative vulnerability to special ammo types relative to their cost.
    TI troops have none of those issues. Take a look at Karakuri next to an Oyoroi, the Karakuri doesn't suffer against AP, DA, EXP, Viral, E/M, Monofilament, Plasma, Flash or Stun Ammo and get's to be ARM6. Given what a TAG is expected to deal with on a regular table the little Geisha bots can easily match the Oyoroi's resilience at a fraction if his cost.
    Same for the average Lycantrophe, you used to be able to stop them with Flash, Stun, Isolate them with E/M and things attacking their BTS were very effective, now they're suddenly resilient against all of that instead.

    Being able to take a linked MSR to the face all of a sudden is no joke either. Invalidating Flashpulse AROs sucks for a variety of armies, especially those who have no other means to put and end to McMurder's Smoke covered killing spree. Sacrificing something for a Flashpulse Normal roll to put a rampaging dog on halt meant you could do something about them. Not to mention that a Flaspulse Bot or Warcor has no effective weapon against a TI trooper now, which in itself isn't great design.

    Most of the TI sporting troops weren't bad or inefficient to begin with, apart from Sun Tze who's 60 points to have a mediocre gunner sit in your DZ will always be a questionable decision for other reasons.
    TI does a lot, it makes immune to Flash Pulse utilizing defensive troops, makes it a hell of a lot harder to kill you in CC, makes E/M and Monofilament a laughing stock and that is just on top of eating EXP hits like nobodies buisness the way it could before.
    CB certainly picked a funny spot to start streamlining the game.
    On the plus side we might actually see TAGs in ITS XI if they get handed Total Immunity for free. That would finally address the problem to make killing them difficult enough to validate their point cost.

    As it so happens I was wondering that myself, I'll try to pull the OTM Data on Tarik's pick and winrate.
     
    #96 Teslarod, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
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  17. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    As long as the pick up a vulnerability or two (EXP+E/M) i'd be okay with this.
     
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  18. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    So now, versus anything with TI, the best counter is to ... use your standard, linked HMG. No need to try anything fancy. Just bullet rain. It's a bit sad to discourage other things than the classic solution to everything :(
     
  19. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    By my count there are 9 profiles in the entire game with TI (not counting symbiomates in this because mates giving TI is better than they used to be and they don’t contribute to the perceived TI problem). You’ll never run into TI if you play against Pan O (any), CA (any) , Aleph (any), Tohaa (again, not counting mates), Tunguska, IA, HB, QK, Druze, Spiral, or Dashat.

    Yu Jing/ISS, Corregidor/Bakunin/Nomads, Haqq/RTF, JSA, Starco, Foreign Company, and Ikari all have a single TI profile.

    Ariadna is the only faction where you’ll see it on multiple profiles. “Everything with TI” isn’t all that much. Obviously local meta is gonna skew things, but generally speaking the rule is not as ubiquitous as it seems to be being portrayed.

    Edit: to elaborate further on why I’m not counting mates: 1) they’re single use. 2) in their previous incarnation they had no counterplay. By changing them to TI counterplay has been added and the point of the post i’m referencing is that TI removes counterplay.
     
    #99 ambisinister, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I mean killing shit with a linked HMG was already your best go to option anyway so nothing's really changed there? You only really flash pulsed the Dogs on ARO if they happened to give you a free shot at it before.
     
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