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I think the change to Total Immunity was a mistake

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    For a couple reasons:

    1) Making Dog-Warriors immune to non-lethal ammo is both unfluffy and has large balance implications that it's not clear are addressed. It's unfluffy because Flash/Stun weapons are used in-universe to deal with Dog-warriors - it's why Loup Garou have them. And it's got balance implications, too, with respect to Flash pulses and Stun rounds previously being very good ways to stop them, and now being disallowed, along with E/M and Monofilament. (And the E/M makes even less sense, considering it's presumably supposed to be blowing out the doggo's non-TI radio.)

    2) Incredible durability added to the Karakuri and Sun Tze profiles. They don't have any vulnerability skills, and in the case of the Karakuri this comes along with an incredible boost in toughness from a functional ARM 3 to ARM 6. This puts the Karakuris in the place of being more durable than some TAGs, and far less vulnerable to Possession and E/M, all for dramatically less points. Sun Tze's in a similar boat. If they actually had to pay points to reach their ARM 6 they'll be using, they'd be prohibitively expensive.

    I don't really have much of an opinion on the change as applied to Überfallkommando or Symbiomates, as those are separate issues.

    Long story short, Total Immunity should have no impact on non-lethal ammo, and they should probably consider adding Vulnerability: Monofilament to all the models with extant TI (though perhaps not Symbiomates; personally I'd remove the fire vulnerability from symbiote armor and add it to symbiomates). Also, a TI user should only be able to roll BTS vs. attacks that target BTS to begin with (Plasma, Viral, etc).
     
    #1 Hecaton, Apr 3, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  2. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Would sign that
     
  3. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

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    Yeah, I agree about the non-lethal stuff.

    I don't like the idea of non-lethal triggering symbio-mates, but it not affecting Dog Warriors is a little too much.
     
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  4. Del S

    Del S Nomadball

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    Seems strange they didn't make more use of vulnerabilities than they did, TBH.
     
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  5. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Which ironically may make them the first profiles to be more appropriately costed for their higher ARM.
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Perhaps. I think Karakuris were quite good already.
     
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  7. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I think they were taken much less than they deserved.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, depends. If you go by model... those models were pretty bad.
     
  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    +1.

    But CB tested it, so we won't see that changed in the near future ^^
     
  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Don’t much agree with how the new Total Immunity is supposedly broken now but there is actually a very good fix for this: remove non-lethal trait from Stun-ammo. This would mean that a Total Immunity model still wouldn’t care about (too) cheap flash pulse pieces that oversaturates the battlefield but would actually be in a dilemma against Stun weaponry, as they can either risk taking wounds if they wish to apply Total Immunity or roll against the DT-ammo and risk getting Stunned but not wounded. This would mean that Multi-Weaponry won’t get devalued and stun grenades/pistols still would work against them, as was their original purpose of a non-lethal take down against Dogwarriors and the likes.
     
    #10 Zewrath, Apr 3, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  11. Pyra

    Pyra Warmongering Potatoe

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    [​IMG]

    To be fair the most annoying thins is the non-lethat implication on Dog-Warriors - makes them even more straight forward to use - just need to avoid MSV2 ARO.
    Karrakui are in below-average army so their buff seems fine? (JSA needed some more staying power without a need to deploy a TAG)
    Sun Tze is more of a meme than a useable profile - Mowang/Hac Tao/Hisen/Su Jian outclasses him.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Did they? They might have tested the new Symbiomates, then just figured all this would work out.
     
  13. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    I need to see how this one plays out on the table. Considering that 2 of my 3 main playable forces specifically have AVA3 Flash Pulse bots as a deliberate advantage of those Sectorials, I'm really conscious of how this changes my defense.

    That being said, other tools exist too. You watch your spacing, try to make the opponent use the bulk of an Order pool to make that Dog throw a lot of smoke, then be willing to trade a couple of linked Combis to take that dog down once it crashes your DZ. If it throws grenades, you watch your spacing and be ready to follow up with a Doc if the unit in question is worth bringing back to life. If you can make that Dog spend 7-8 Orders for the entire advance and attack, and make sure your opponent's secondary pool can't get a good offensive push, then you're really not in a terrible position. The tradeoff is that rather than Flash Pulsing things, you're putting some Combi guys in harm's way. A linked Combi Rifle can easily put a dent in a unit that can't claim Cover.

    The big irony I see is that Mates were changed to obey a principal design philosophy of N3... Give players a chance to roll the dice, however improbable the F2F or the possibility of Saving. Having Total Immunity units flat-out ignore Non Lethal is basically a step backwards from that philosophy. Instead of Mates situationally ignoring hits, Total Immunity units situationally ignore them instead. I don't know if it breaks balance... I don't think it really does... But it's still a conflict of design ethos.
     
    #13 barakiel, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
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  14. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    I’ve come up against the new Total Immunity no less than four times in the last eight days, and whilst neither knowledgeable nor competitive, I was surprised how badly limited my options seemed to be.

    Last night I played Steel Phalanx against Dahshat Company and came up against McMurrough with TI. My ranged BS options seemed so ineffective that getting Ajax and linked Myrmidons into Close Combat was actually most expedient, and don’t know if there was any better solution! (Other suggestions are very welcome).

    TL;DR TI seems very popular and way overpowered. Since CB would’ve thoroughly tested, as @eciu said, it’s not clear what improvement they feel they’ve made. Maybe they want more heroic CC? :smile: Dunno.
     
    #14 Wolf, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  15. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I don't think total immunity is a very good rule. There is no reason for dog warriors or Karakuri to be less exploded by an anti tank missile than anything else.

    If it is mutant healing factor, give them regeneration.
    If it is damage resistance, give them higher ARM.
    If it is durability, give them higher W/STR.
    If it is tenacity give them levels of courage.


    Total Immunity is pure rules bloat.

     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think it was originally supposed to be actual immunity to non-silver weapons.
     
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  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The only people that are going to be significantly overwhelmed by Dogs of various shades are those that overly relied on Flash Pulse networks to ARO. TBH, I have no issue with Flash Pulse batteries in general getting a bit of an indirect nerf I found them way too prevalent as ARO options given that they were being used as cheap order batteries at the same time along with them helping FO's outclass most other forms of skirmishing specialists.

    In your case you have many options.

    1. Agema MK12 profile. This is actually a really awesome piece with the Bravery rule allowing it to start up the table. They're quite solid when pushed into a decent spot then just going into SF mode.
    2. Just shoot them with your bog standard link team. Do the math, 54% to wound McMurder with a Burst 5 spitfire. 29% he drops smoke and if he drops smoke, great. Run at him and beat the shit out of it with your own link. You're still Burst 4 or whatever if you pile in on it.

    I think many people are very much over exaggerating the level of invincibility that the Dogs now have.

    You know what's changed when you shoot McMurder with a Mk12, Spitfire, or HMG? Literally fucking nothing. Hunt the dogs, apply bullets to face in your turn and they will die.

    The real outliers as @Hecaton points out are Sun Tze and the Karakuri.

    In my opinion either of these getting a survivability buff is fine, hell, even warranted. We all know heavy armour models overpay for their defensive stat with ARM and BTS being two of the worst costed stats in the game. Having some more durable models in the game that can actually apply their armour stat reliably is an interesting change.

    On top of that JSA ate a Saito nerf in the same update so I'm not going to begrudge them a buff elsewhere. As for Sun Tze, he suffered an indirect nerf by removing his usual model paired with him, Kitsune, and his remaining role in the faction as "I provide an extra order for the shooty guy" has been usurped by the Daoying so pushing him in the direction of Ultimate Tank Lieutenant is something I like as well. It's unique and from experience it's been fun to use.

    For the record I have put Sun Tze on the table post changes. He doesn't kill anything, being a B12 Shotgun doesn't really let you kill stuff, but he certainly can tank hits like a boss now. Having him as a potential very hard to kill ARO piece doesn't feel anymore egregious to me balance wise than this:


    Varuna Immediate Reaction Division
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KAMAU (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)

    1.5 SWC | 72 Points

    If this exists as an ARO hurdle to overcome I don't have an issue with an ARM9 Flash Pulse dude that costs 60pts.

    Disclaimer: Any reference to Sun Tze refers to the Heavy Infantry option. V2 Sniper is still utter shit.
     
    #17 Triumph, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  18. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    Maybe they want people to actually invest significantly in ARO pieces, and not just throw-away a bunch of flash pulse bots and a warcor.

    The fact that most of the newly released and reworked factions have more options for defense (jammers, helots...), and/or can field strong AROs like HI and MSV without breaking the bank thanks to mixed fireteams definitely helps, and I don't think it's a coincidence.
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I doubt it's that directed.

    That wouldn't help the existing sectorials/forces that rely on them, though.

    @Triumph The issue is that Karakuris are now basically more durable than the "superlight" TAGs (Geckos, Xeodrons), and are about as good at shooting and 20 less points. If this update also came with a points reduction for troopers like that, I'd say it was intentional; this seems like an unintended consequence.
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yes, more units with overcosted stats and questionable viability due to their natures as a TAG. They need an overhaul too, but I don't find the changes to Karakuri imbalancing given that they don't wildly change the landscape of the game, nor do they directly compete with either model.

    The answer is you fix the TAGs as well **cough**fucking Guijia**cough** not worry about the Karakuri.


    I don't believe there are any sectorials that are going to be too adversely impacted by being asked to consider balancing their list design with a little bit less Flash Pulse and a little bit more actual guns. Basically against like 80% of the field this change isn't going to make any real difference because only Ariadna are going to frequently jam Total Immunity models into your lines.
     
    #20 Triumph, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019