Well apparently you forgot Haqq can do their own TO: Ramah Taskforce ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 1 TUAREG Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 33) 0.5 SWC | 33 Points Open in Infinity Army
You should probably reread that post... I literally posted that Tuareg profile as a comparison. For the same points over a Tuareg the OS gets +1BS and a much better gun. RTF get a very cool Haris. MO get a very cool TO sniper. Everyone gets stuff was the point I was making.
No, but as far as I know nobody in the entire game gets SWC discounts on MSRs and for good reason, the ammo types make a massive difference in capacity to inflict damage. We're talking stuff like a 20% swing vs a regular sniper rifle vs an ARM4 target. One of the things that Haqq does not get is multi weaponry very easily, which includes MSRs. This makes their potential ARO presence significantly weaker than many factions and can make some units like the new NWI Janissary with the regular sniper rifle feel very anemic. The OS is a very efficient profile however, they're streamlined into a very cost effective package for what is normally a relatively expensive gun, costing the same points as a model with an inferior gun and inferior main stat is proof of that.
Well Tuareg has +1 SWC, +2 PH and +2 WIP and Multiterrain so its not exactly just a better gun and BS (and CC) for a higher SWC at the same points. That been said, OS TO sniper is a really important part of MO even if someone does not use it.
He is. Funny enough I almost always (like 95%) had him in a list, and whenever I didn't I regretted that tenfold. Well now MO is not exactly fitted to hide the guy in HD and lose so precious orders, so recently in games I had I had to handle the things without support of either TO guys.
Depending on how generally you want to speak, you can narrow the game down to a few archetypes. PanO has a disadvantage in that the only way we can obfuscate is with camo. We have no smoke or warbands. So, unlike other armies who can avoid confrontations, we can be put in situations in which we have to get through it with superior firepower. This fact means that to be competitive, PanO has to rely on a strong firebase in the core team and skirmishers. They'll show up in a lot of lists because it's the reality of playing PanO. I agree. I think the value of the haris is mixing an SWC weapon with a specialist. However, I'd much rather take 2-3 camo guys who start outside of my deployment zone, but having three guys move forward to die seems better than moving a core team forward to die.
Well usually using that HMG or MSR in a haris is counter intuitive to mix with a specialist because generally you don't want those weapons too far forward – which kind of lies the inherent problem with PanO Harises on a whole – how many points/SWC is that extra burst worth? I like Spitfire's in Harises a lot more than their heavier cousins, which PanO severely lacks, this way they actually move up the board and drag that specialist along for the ride.
I see your MULTI sniper rifle, and raise you a WIP15 Doctor w/ rifle and light shotgun? Everyone's got at least a few good profiles in their Sectorials. Come on now. Picking two different Sniper options doesn't strike me as terribly relevant.
What strikes me as odd about MO is how centered it is on rifle to spitfire range. Until recently we had only a single hmg. But 18 spifire profiles. On the other hand while we had 3 boarding shotgun profiles on knights, we had no high burst weapons for that range band, no assault pistols on knights (1 on koni however) and decidedly no SMG. We've actually gone down 1 boarding shotgun profile and gained 1 hmg. But are still devoid of those deliciously optimized weapons . Hell id trade some of our spitfires for red furies.
Fair. But sending that haris up a flank is a good option. The haris guy usually has a combi (and light shotgun) for close engagements. The SWC guy can pick off targets farther away laterally, catching things out of cover. And to be fair, burst 5 on an hmg at 8-16 is still a solid attack piece. Also, the order efficiency of moving up an attack piece and a solid gunfighter I think is more important than +1 burst.
Very happy to see this post. I originally posted my fireteam topic with MO Harises in mind. I think my big question is how do you manage to field a HI Haris that includes lieutenant with enough support to overcome hacking threats?
Thoughts on this Haris (bottom group)? 10 points more and some range reduction. However, much more lethal at close range due to Assault pistol on MSV 2 + Mimetism, HI Lieutenant better armed to deal with Hacking, doubles down on specialist operative and offers a stronger specialist for most missions, assault hacking + D-charges threat, stronger CC potential. Much stronger vs. camo as well.
I think three(.5) big things influence this. There might be a community impact but its relatively small. 1) Top-tier BS on line troopers (or, top-tier among line troopers maybe?) highly incentivizes defensive links + solo pieces. Running a bunch of line troopers around the table to do things is usually the worst way to play them since they're so fragile, and the fact that every PanO sectorial can get BS15 AROs for like 40 points of investment on top of the ARO means you throw your one Missile/MSR/Whatever in the link and let it produce orders. 2) Active links are very pricey or very fragile in PanO. The only place this is less true is MO, which it turns out is the only place that fielding big links ever happens. An Orc core in Acon sets you back something like 165 points (if you decide to slow them down with Rao), and in NCA its even more (175 with 5 BSG). Especially after the most recent round of updates, there's very little reason to field an Orc Core when I could just throw the Feuerbach in a link of Fusiliers/Regulars. What active link is Acon going to run, for example? Yes, they'll throw a Bagh Mari HMG in the link just to get the core bonus, but his slow movement and the general unwieldiness of the 5-man discourages moving him around for more than a couple of orders. PanO links that actually can shoot are made of almost entirely one-wound units. 3) PanO order economy favors high order counts, which in turn causes people to take defensive links. You just can't afford a big active link if you need to hit 15 orders to have enough to push buttons. This is especially true in NCA where you're almost always going to have a fusilier defensive link, a couple auxilias, and all the other cheap stuff. This is a result of PanO's weaker specialist options (though Varuna and arguably Acon is maybe excluded from this particular aspect.) WIP12 specialists are 10% worse than WIP14 specialists on most objectives, but over the course of the game this adds up to needing several more orders. Also keep in mind that many of these specialists don't infiltrate and need the orders to move up the table -- especially true in NCA where your infiltrating specialist is the locust, who doesn't have hidden deployment/marker state to defend himself. There are a few smaller things that I think impact this as well, such as the lack of cheaper multi-wound haris options, the fact that PanO firepower already being generally good means the haris bonus is worth a bit less, the community impact is there maybe somewhat (but I've noticed that even PanO players who aren't super into the community generally end up reaching high order counts as a strategy), and the fact that PanO's big factional advantages encourage shoot-first-push-later tactics. All of those things encourage the use of defensive links + solo pieces.
You also lose a wound and add a huge weakness to the link from hacking. Throw a Zero surprise shooting Redrum into De Fersen and see what happens (hint, De Fersen rarely wins that).
I think the profile you’re missing is the Santiago killer hacker. The tinbot protects the other models in the haris and the hacker murders other hackers. It does mean you only have two other models in the haris, so defersen and the Hospitaller haris/Doctor is the only way the get your LT in with an SWC weapon as well.
difference of opinions my friend, at the end of the day I often feel that .5 SWC tax is better invested elsewhere – You can always just take solo whatever SWC weapon you planned to put in that haris and whatever other specialist/combi gunfighter you were going to take you can re-invest in infiltrators that often cost a similar amount and either start further up the board and/or come bundled with a negative mod. TBH I have yet to field a Combi Kamau or even see a list that takes one, the same can be said for the Combi bagh these days. There's really no reason to put these guys in links anymore and to take those points and just put them into a SMR Zulu Cobra or a Naga
Don’t get me wrong. I take skirmishers and a solo HMG over a haris almost every time. There is something to be said for order efficiency. I think Bolts are where that’s at right now. The KHD+haris+spitfire has an insane number of tools for just over 60 points.
I'm 0-1 with Shas, can't even beat your basic brigadier MSL xD And when it comes to MO I'm all about the Father Knight spam ;)
