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I know.... plastic infinity

Discussion in 'News' started by Shyvax, Apr 5, 2021.

  1. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    So far CB’s forays into plastic (Aristeia!, Defiance) are board game products using Chinese PVC manufacturers. They clearly put a lot of value on keeping the main Infinity production in-house, so it’ll be interesting to see where they go in the future.
     
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  2. Shyvax

    Shyvax New Member

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    Thanks, that's very good to hear. I understand that many of you like the metal models. Many of you made it clear in your answers.

    I still believe, and this is only my POV, that plastic (HIPS) is easier to use than metal. Even if you get twice as many pieces. The glue is more kid friendly, aka no fingers stuck together because of the super glue, the cutting is easier, line removal is easier too, the convertion process is also easier and if your model falls... well, most of the time it will bounce and not break.

    But I get it, I started with metal as well. I love the weight, and I like the durability. You can strip the paint and sell it, almost like new. This is much harder to do with plastic.

    Anyway. I look forward to CB to venture into HIPS.
     
  3. Vocenoctum

    Vocenoctum Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how big they are in the grand scheme of things, but Archon Studio in Poland does their own HIPS, and it's pretty good quality. Mostly just the Dungeons and Lasers, but they did some models within that were nicely done. Not on Infinity level detail though. Main problem I have with their stuff is they crowd the sprue something fierce.
     
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  4. borisgreymenace

    borisgreymenace killer heckler

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    this is the story of so many failed kickstarters promising a zillion high end models. it's not impossible for an established company, but keep in mind that CB has a business model that works, and works well. they are just getting the hang of fulfilling a KS. let's not rush them to change their whole production and supply chain just because we think it might be cool?

    i get that the CB models might not be as easy to get into as push-fit GW plastics, but maybe that's ok in the grand scheme of things. having to age into more sophisticated modeling isn't so bad, and it gives people a chance to grow in the hobby and stay interested.
     
  5. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    I tend to think that's the plan for Tag Raid.
     
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  6. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    Renedra also has no available capacity to take on more.

    They were who GW got to do their original plastic stuff back in the late 80s and early 90s. They made the rhinos, land raiders, RTB001 beakies, guard and fantasy figures for GW, because they were local, and could do so (their major UK client before GW was Matchbox. They did the plastic inserts - those interior pieces with the seats and steering wheels, etc - for all of their cars.). GW managed to leverage a lot of stuff after going public on the stock exchange. They went from owning the dies in a time-leased machine owned by another company, to buying a machine in that company's factory, to owning their own factory with multiple machines.
     
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  7. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    Here's a question. What s the production run for an average Infinity box and blister. For example, how many Tiger Soldier w/Spitfre blisters has CB produced? How many Chaksa Longarm boxes will they produce? IDK if they've ever made the numbers public, but I've worked for a bunch of game companies and the numbers are often a LOT less than you'd think.

    Plastic needs to see to be worthwhile. I have no doubt that CB could make it worthwhile for some products. Like a Sectorial starter or Operations box. But I'm guessing a LOT of other models, maybe the majority of their line, wouldn't be profitable in plastic.

    This could lead to a few things:

    - Focus on just plastic releases in the form of large box sets and smaller boxes featuring multiple units. We're already seeing this with Code One.

    - A limited handful of plastic releases for just very high profile sets like the Operations boxes.

    - Just plastic releases, with MUCH less releases overall as CB focuses on sets they think will sell well.
     
  8. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I don't have the visibility into supply chains to estimate the total volume of any particular release, but I have been playing long enough that I've seen particular models go out of stock globally until a new production run is scheduled and CB is able to start shipping them out again. The specific instance I'm thinking of was the classic Kurgat Mk 12 around 5 or 6 years ago, but I somehow doubt it was an isolated incident. I guess another good example would be the first Operation box, where the preorders alone exceeded the total planned print run and they had to push back other releases in order to make enough copies.
     
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  9. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Remotes are generally out of stock everywhere half the time since N3 released and CB made them stupidly good. I guess those would be prime candidates for conversion to plastic.
     
  10. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that CB is pretty comfortable with their current setup, were they can produce an initial run, and if the blister/box sells out, can produce a new run to meet demand. If the item never sells out or doesn't sell particularly well it can be retires to make room in the catalog for a new item. And brought back later of they think there will be new demand with a new sectorial or retooled army list.

    Plastic makes all of that harder. With each release CB has to estimate if its lifetime sales will make plastic production worthwhile. For something like an Operations box that sells very strong out of the gate and then later becomes two different starter boxes, the answer is probably yes. Same for an evergreen product like remotes. For an individual character or unit that only a single faction can use (like Kornak or Nisse or the majority of Infinity models)? Plastic production probably doesn't make sense. Even if they are confident a Kornak blister will eventually sell X over Y years and make its cost back, thats such a large up front cost. And a risk in a way that multiple shorter runs of metal models are not.

    At this point I suspect plastic is impossible we're willing to accept either:

    - A mixed like of mostly metal with a few plastic kits for the most popular options.

    - An all plastic line that has a severely reduced number of SKUs and a release model like Code One (Army Set, Booster Boxes)
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    There are a lot of back and forth arguments between Warhammer and Infinity about model costs, but if you focus on production overhead like molds and materials, it makes more sense.

    A GW box of 10 plastic basic troops frequently has a lower cost per model than a box of 4 metal S2 Infinity models. However, a blister with one plastic GW hero generally costs significantly more than any single metal model blister in the Infinity line. A lot of this ties into how many more copies of a unit box will be sold over the lifetime of the game vs a particular hero/leader.
     
  12. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    Sure, sure. But I imagine that CB is not in a position where they're going to feel comfortable investing in a plastic Agent Dukash (for example). Maybe a Dukash will sell enough copies over the unit's lifetime to justify the cost. But thats a big risk. What is people don't like the model? or the profile? Or get bored with Shasvastii? Or just start using some other model as a proxy? Even if none of that happens, can CB sink that kid of money into a model and wait for X months/years for it to pay itself off? And can they do that with 6 releases every month?

    On the other hand, metal may be more expensive per unit, and they may end up spending more over 5 or 10 years on a metal Dukash model in the long run, but its never a risk. The create a mold and spin up X copies, and whenever they need more they spin up the mold again. Cost is more per unit, but risk is nearly nothing.

    The Magister Knights box that came out a few years ago is an interesting case. It was only available for a very short time. A year? 18 month? I don't remember exactly, but was gone very fast. And a lot of people were really surprised by that. But I think its safe to assume that CB made back their investment on that box. They likely decided to let it go out of print after its initial run or a reprint or two. and they can do that because they didn't invest a fortune in molds for a plastic kit.

    You can argue that this gives them the flexibility to redesign an army without being beholden to older kits, or even recent kits. I think most people appreciate that the Magister concept was wrapped into Teutons (even though we all wish the AVA was higher). If CB had felt compelled to keep a plastic Magister box in print in order to make their return on investment we probably wouldn't have seen that change. Instead we might have seen Tuetons eliminated or turned into a very different unit. Magisters might have stayed the same, or might have become a link filling wildcard. keeping the Magister box in print might have meant not producing some other future box. IDK if any of this would have been better or worse (and I think you can argue either way), but I do think that short run metal releases give CB the freedom to let something go out of print if they decide they want to make changes.

    And of course, an out of print molds for metal models can be spun up again for a re-release at any time!

    I know I'm just telling you stuff you already know, but I want to talk about this because its clear a lot of people have no idea how any of this works, or at least haven't really thought about it much or have some real misconceptions.
     
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  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yep, I think we pretty much agree, Jake. I was trying to mostly make the same points, just coming at it from the other end.
     
  14. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Like I said, I just wanted t talk about this because a lot of people in the community seem to be very pro-plastic without realizing all the reasons why CB might not be eager to make that switch.
     
  15. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    With plastic you could make multiple units in 1 box. Like what GW did with most of the WHFB 8th edition releases. You could make sprue that lets you build either Fusiliers or Regulars. Or Orcs and basically any other PanO HI in a single box. That would greatly reduce SKU's and also increase viability of the moulds.
    On the Magister being available for only a year or so, that is CB horrible planning at work. If they were more competent that wouldn't happen. Another example for me is Locust in Svalar. I could bet my life they had that new Locust model ready and possibly even made moulds for it and then decided to retire NCA. So they shoved Locust on Svalar, so that they can get at least some ROI on it.
     
  16. Shyvax

    Shyvax New Member

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    I feel there is room for plastic set to be used as part of a starter set, for example. With the rest of the range metal.... very much like GW back in mid 90s.

    Starter Set is what brings players to the hobby. This is something GW is great at doing. I personally prefer Infinity world, and look, but GW has shown that some of the choices made over the last few years have greatly improve their visibility and income... just look at their share price.

    Aristeia is very accessible.... but it is a board game. The hobby aspect is limited to painting only. Which is great! But not the full experience of building something, then painting it, AND being easily accessible without the use of glue.
     
  17. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any actual evidence of this?
     
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  18. WWHSD

    WWHSD Well-Known Member

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    Their weight and small contact points would also seem to make remotes good candidates for plastic kits.
     
  19. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    No, I used this thing I normally use only to fill out my cranium called brain. But how would you interpret spending thousands on 3d modeler, then professional 3d print, then making moulds, then boxing and shipping worldwide a product you already should have in your internal plans as something you will soon discontinue and then spending all that money again on a replacement ? I am awaiting enlightenment.
     
  20. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 "It's a bug in the document"

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    so no evidence?
     
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