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HVT and Smoke

Discussion in 'Rules' started by avanst, Sep 3, 2018.

  1. avanst

    avanst Member

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    Can you put a smoke template onto a civilian model? If so what rule allows it?
     
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Are there any rules against placing a smoke template on any model? The rules already have ways of handling smoke placed on a model, is there any indication those rules would not apply in this case?
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Do you possibly mean targeting the actual HVT, as in centring the template inside the HVT's silhouette as a way of not having to use Speculative Fire on the ground that the HVT is standing on when something's blocking LOF to that area of the ground?
     
  4. avanst

    avanst Member

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    The civilian rules actually state that they cant be subject to any attacks. And any template that effects them are canceled.

    Smoke is an attack, template, even if its non-lethal. So I am interested in knowing if the smoke template touches an hvt or civi is it canceled.

    Especially because you dont get to place the template before you pick a target (the ground)
     
  5. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I was about to respond that if you do not target the HVT specifically, you can land a Smoke grenade next to them, but then I read that the stack is cancelled automatically. I'm actually curious how it is possible to harm the HVT at all if any attacks that touch it are considered to be null.
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It's a bit buried, but Smoke ammo says that it's not an Attack. Otherwise you could never place it over your own troopers, or drop Smoke at your feet.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    @n21lv Jump and falling damage is about it.
     
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  8. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I couldn't find that in the Wiki. Is this a feat exclusive to Smoke, or any other non-lethal templates can be placed over the HVT model (Eclipse, Nimbus etc)?
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Eclipse works exactly like Smoke, so if Smoke is not an Attack then Eclipse is not an Attack.

    Nimbus is explicitly an Attack so cannot cover a Civilian.
     
  10. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Again, I cannot find anything like that in the Wiki. Labels such as Attack are usually a part of the Skill description, but Smoke, Nimbus etc are Special Ammunition, so not sure how Attack applies here.

    The only thing that could be pointing to what @ijw wrote is the Non-lethal trait, but Nimbus also has it, as well as Stun grenades.
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Nimbus_Special_Ammunition

    4th bullet point of the effects

    • Firing Nimbus Special Ammunition is an Attack.
    The Smoke one is less clear-cut but I think it derives from this part (bolding mine):

    Smoke and Speculative Fire
    Certain weapons that use Smoke Special Ammunition allow the user to use the Speculative Fire Common Skill. In that case, the Common Skill Speculative Fire works normally, even though it is a Special Dodgeand not an Attack.

    Possibly it's clearer in the Spanish.
     
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  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That means that you can't put Nimbus so that the template covers your own Troops?
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No it doesn't. There are some implications that it isn't, but it never goes out and says it.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I guarantee CB doesn't play that way. Of course, they leave us to deal with the fallout of their slapdash rules...
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Colbrook already quoted it up-thread. Please don't be obtuse.
    Based on?
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It reads more like there used to be an explicit declaration that Smoke ammo wasn't an attack, they decided to nix it from the rules, but didn't clean up this one passage - and it's being used in a cargo cult-style interpretation to claim that Smoke isn't an attack.

    The general "Just use common sense!" attitude we get from CB when rules are unclear that implies that they don't see situations like this as a problem.
     
  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    We've had this conversation before. That you don't like it doesn't make it a cargo cult.



    So you can't guarantee that CB play with Nimbus being placed over friendlies. And what part of the Nimbus ammo rules is unclear?
     
  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I found it funny back in the day how Hector was inmunne to his stun grenades, but could not drop them at his feet to affect enemies close by, since it would be an attack XD

    Also, I think a Gaki's Explosion skill could make a Morat/CA player to lose the game (the Wu Ming would use Dogged).
     
  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    That used to be correct, however HSN3 added an entire section about Civilians now and the last bullet points reads:
    • Automatic Attacks (as the one of the Explode Special Skill, for example) which affect a Civilian will be considered null.
     
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  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Hilariously Smoke is not an attack so you can use it even when stunned (though you suffer -3 mod due to Stunned).